Fearless wrote: I am going to be daring and specifically state up front that this post is about your tactic of trying to discredit people personally (Burgbud and me most recently) when they have a disagreement with you about opinions on a subject. I do not know if you are aware that you do this or at least if you are aware that it comes across that way. Maybe there is another side to it or reason you do it but I cannot see it right now. I am offering this to you for information in case you do not purposely do it.
What you aren’t glomming onto is that some people haven’t done the work you describe or may think they have, but only did so at a superficial level. Let me explain. My W has also stated for years that she has worked through her FOO with her father and has come to terms with what he was or was not, what she missed from him, etc. She accepted her past, recognized his faults as well as his pluses, the good times and the bad. She believes she is a peace with him. Sounds a lot like what you just described about yourself. So with that, she should have laid her demons to rest, or at least know what they are when they keep popping up so she can work at not repeating the same mistakes, right?
Well it didn’t work that way. She’s still pretty darn reactive. Why? Because FOO can run deep. She looked at HER issues, the issues that affect how SHE feels toward her dad. What she did not look at was how the influence from her dad affected OTHERS around her. She did not have any direct concern about how she affected others because she never believed should ever end up married. She is who she is, she does as she pleases, so she is at peace, right?
But I am the one who has to live with her and I am the one who has to deal with her actions, reactions and beliefs. If we are to get along, we need to find a middle ground. That means she will need to reevaluate how she presents herself to me, even if she sees no other reason to change. This is what I consider the secondary layer of FOO.
I do think Fearless has done a good job of coming to terms with her past and she is comfortable with who she is. Fine. No problem. But something was a problem for her exH. Maybe there will be no problem for Raven. That will be a different relationship mix. The only thing I was addressing with her was the problems that were with her exH. In that relationship, she had an influence on the mix in the marriage.
I’m glad you’ve come to terms with your FOO and your parents. I hear you when you say you have worked through your stuff to identify past hurts and how those affected you, your actions, reactions, and I assume any lingering anger. So it is just beyond me why you seem to get so riled up at my posts, my tone, my denials, and anything else about me that seems to tick you off. If you have worked through any self-deceptions, why do you think this is so?
I am going to be daring and specifically state up front that this post is about your tactic of trying to discredit people personally (Burgbud and me most recently) when they have a disagreement with you about opinions on a subject. I do not know if you are aware that you do this or at least if you are aware that it comes across that way. Maybe there is another side to it or reason you do it but I cannot see it right now. I am offering this to you for information in case you do not purposely do it.
I think I did answer your question when I explained why I press questions as I do, but that was an indirect reply, so to be clear, let me say that I do NOT think I try to discredit others, as you say. Burgbud has an issue with me saying things in absolutes. He brought up the incident of last year. I looked into it, saw no basis for what he was saying, as said so. I thought his motives then were fishy but if you read a little further on that thread you will see that Heather said he was a friend to her and I accepted that. I still think his motives were fishy. I don’t really care one way or another, as that is between he and Heather, but that’s what I think.
As for you, I see little difference in what I was trying to do with you and your FOO and what Corri and others were trying to do with CAC. Corri saw something and was trying to explain/uncover/analyze what she saw. Either that “thing” with CAC did not exist and she was wrong in her suspicion or CAC could not see what she was driving at, or maybe a little of both.
I suspect he felt a little ganged up on, until the end when I think it felt like an attack to him. So why don’t you accuse Corri of “discrediting” CAC? He had a pretty strong opinion on how he felt about flying. She kept trying different angles. I’m not saying Corri did anything wrong. I think she did exactly what any counselor would do – explore theme to see if they lead somewhere, search out suspicions. But I also see little difference in what she was doing and what I was doing. If you see a difference, explain it to me.
Now that I think of it, I think that was a cheap shot. No offense to Corri, but she did make CAC mad. When have I made someone mad in that way when I was asking about his/her issues? I've had people mad at me like Burgbud, but I was not asking about his sitch.
I know I have asked some tough questions and made some tough comments to Mojo, but I don't recall her getting mad at me like CAC did. She got mad recently because she thought I had a holier-than-thou view of her morality. I never got the impression that she blew up at me.
Now that I think of it, I think that was a cheap shot. No offense to Corri, but she did make CAC mad.
I didn't make Cac anything. He chose to get mad and he chose to respond. Separate issue.
How I went about it and my part in it are up for debate and analysis FOR ME, MYSELF and I. People give me their thoughts and input, and since we are on this particular BB, I'm thinking that most people do so with honest intent of helping me help myself. I take it into consideration. I don't feel judged, even by Cac. He let me play a part in his hurt and anger. He was as honest with me as he was capable, even in telling me to take a leap. I was honest with him. But I don't insist that he see it my way just because I think I am right. We agreed to have a conversation. He ended it. Done. I think I took some serious missteps. I owned it and apologized. It's all I can do. Hopefully, I'll do better next time. I have other thoughts on the matter, but they are really moot at this point.
This is where I think you are missing what people are trying to tell you.
Quote:
What you aren’t glomming onto is that some people haven’t done the work you describe or may think they have, but only did so at a superficial level. Let me explain. My W has also stated for years that she has worked through her FOO...
I was with your right up until you used your WIFE as your example. You have assessed and judged her. Then you ask people to accept your judgment and assessment as truth and fact. Then you go into detail about why you are correct.
This is flawed logic, because everything you say in regard to ANOTHER INDIVIDUAL is based solely on your perception of right and wrong. So not only am I dealing with YOU, whom I don't know because you never talk of him, I am also dealing with another person, whom I don't know, because I only know her through second hand account. Lots and lots of unknowns there.
Now. If you had said what you had said abvoe, and then in bold, instead of using your W as an example, you used something from YOURSELF, your life, your foo, your struggles, your realizations... as an example... I will accept, willingly, your version of self-analysis. It is YOU, afterall. Who would know YOU better than... YOU? And THEN we can discuss things.
This stuff you've got going on with Burg... you ask, well why wouldn't I see it that way, based on x, y, and z? Well I don't know, other than the fact that Burg showed up and said that isn't what happened. It came from the source. You choose to accept YOUR version over his, and why it was okay that you saw it that way to begin with. Fine, you did. Fine, you were incorrect.
Where is ownership of that? Is Cobra capable of that? That's where the... mistrust enters, at times? Self-accountability. You say you are... but it is never seen or felt by others. That's where saying one thing and doing another can cause 'trust' issues.
You may think you are doing this...(sharing of yourself, your progress, your thoughts, feelings, etc., and giving examples from COBRA)... but people are telling you that that is not what they are getting from you. Hopefully you understand that, in people here telling you they are not getting the COBRA version of things, they are only trying to help you.
We really don't want to hear where your wife goes wrong... we want to hear where Cobra goes wrong (and right), according to Cobra, and how you worked through that or built upon it.
I've read your other posts but I'll just start off with your first one post.
1)No I do not agree with your premise. I do not believe that if I meet one spouse I can assume the other spouse is at the same differentiation level. For me I believe this may happen "often" but I am unsure of what percentage it is and it is not a high enough percentage for me to make that assumption. Of course I am not even sure how many "levels" of differentiation there are. 2)Closer in agreement but not quite. In a closed loop absolute situation of a+b=c, I agree you only need 2 of the three variables to figure out the remaining one. However in psychology it does not seem as simple, clear and absolute as a+b=c. It seems that you have different interactions to account for and exponential reactions. Plus it is difficult to have an absolute a, b, and c in psychology. You can have 2 people with abandonment issues but they might not exhibit the EXACT same behaviors so their "c" is not exactly the same. Also they may have a similar "a" contributor but again similar and not exact so therefore would their "b" factor necessarily be the same? I would say not necessarily so. It could be but I would not feel confident that it was. Especially considering there are many more than 2 factors adding into how their abandonment issue developed and is exhibited.
I do agree that by talking to one spouse you can understand SOME of what is going on in a marriage but I am not sure why you need your 2 premises to come to that conclusion.
I will agree that talking to both spouses can help give more information to the issues at play.
I will agree that if someone exhibits abandonment issues, then likely something happened to cause that condition.
I also agree that as humans we are not fully credible or reliable witnesses because we have tinted lenses, biases, personal weaknesses, etc. So I believe that we have to be open minded to the possibility of seeing things from another angle if we have any hope of not closing ourselves off. I am a problem solver by nature and as a consultant I have to constantly get clients to open up their eyes to seeing things differently. It is not easy for consultants and we have to watch that we are not drawn into someone's personal view of what is going on in their plant.
This is the heart of denial. It is not intentional. It is not conscious. It just is.
I guess I agree that many times denial is basically unintentional and not conscious but I still have a nagging feeling that while specific and occasional denial is unintentional, the overall tendency toward denial and the propensity to allow yourself the cover of denial is somewhat purposeful as a protection mechanism. In general, the people that I see that express the least denial are also the ones that are the most confident. In general, those that express the greatest denial are the ones that are the most insecure.
There is a very interesting book called "Mistakes were made but not by me" that discusses some reasons behind denial. Also a book called "Why good people do bad things" talks about things along these lines too.
Until you know otherwise, what you know of your past is what you know.
I am not sure if the last paragraph is directed specifically at me or not. I will answer as if it was. Have you been assuming that I have not spent the last 20 years reviewing and reevaluating what I know about myself and my family? Have you assumed that I do not understand that it takes a lot of painful work to see things? I have been reviewing and reevaluating even when it is difficult and I will continue to look at myself and family. As I age I see things differently and my family changes and our relationship changes also. Until that programming is changed, the "truth" looks just like an attack. Does this much make sense?
Are you saying that I "perceive" you as attacking me merely because you are showing me the "truth?" I perceived you as "attacking" me (more of attempting to discredit me to deflect away from my POV) because of the way you avoid answering my direct comments or questions to you and start asking me "Why did you XH leave you?" To me that does not appear to be searching for the truth but to be deflecting away from an argument that is not going the direction you want it to go.
Additionally you bring up why my XH had an affair and left me and what did I do or not do that caused it. I have told you that our MC/my IC along with my XH has answered that question. Frank Pittman also answered that question in his description of the Romantic affair. He even states that good marriages are equally as vulnerable to the romantic affair because it is brought on by the betrayer's own personal issues and the "good" marriage is not enough to "fix" that person's issues. Should I ignore experts, our MC and my XH???
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
I think what Cobra is trying to get to is... it takes two people to make a marriage and it takes to people to break it. Your H deciding to have the affair was his sole responsibility. But up until that moment, the R deteriorating to a point that he was vulnerable enough to make that decision, you did play a part in.
And if you thought everything was great and strong and you were being all you could be... (even strong marriages are vulnerable)... there IS a part you played in it. For it takes two people to make a marriage, and two people to break it.
I think he is wondering what you think YOUR part in that was...
because everything you say in regard to ANOTHER INDIVIDUAL is based solely on your perception of right and wrong.
Everything anyone says is based on that person’s sense of right or wrong. Do you use someone else’s values when you make statements to another person? No, you use your own. You can acknowledge that other person’s values, but whether you agree or disagree depends on how those values differ from yours.
So not only am I dealing with YOU, whom I don't know because you never talk of him, I am also dealing with another person, whom I don't know, because I only know her through second hand account. Lots and lots of unknowns there.
That is always the case when only one spouse posts here.
Now. If you had said what you had said abvoe, and then in bold, instead of using your W as an example, you used something from YOURSELF, your life, your foo, your struggles, your realizations... as an example... I will accept, willingly, your version of self-analysis. It is YOU, afterall. Who would know YOU better than... YOU? And THEN we can discuss things.
I did this to. But even my own analysis of myself can be wrong. If your analysis of yourself was not wrong at some point, you would not have mistepped with CAC.
This stuff you've got going on with Burg... you ask, well why wouldn't I see it that way, based on x, y, and z? Well I don't know, other than the fact that Burg showed up and said that isn't what happened. It came from the source. You choose to accept YOUR version over his, and why it was okay that you saw it that way to begin with. Fine, you did. Fine, you were incorrect.
Burg challenged why I thought with certainty there was something fishy. I am still certain there was something fishy. That is how I saw it. If another situation comes up like that I will think it is fishy. This is no different that Nop saying he will “ferret out an affair.” Certain situations smell fishy to him too.
You may think you are doing this...(sharing of yourself, your progress, your thoughts, feelings, etc., and giving examples from COBRA)... but people are telling you that that is not what they are getting from you.
And what if I AM doing just that? What if they are getting the Cobra version of things but that version is not what they like to hear? Why do you assume that I am somehow twisting the truth?
Hopefully you understand that, in people here telling you they are not getting the COBRA version of things, they are only trying to help you.
I can understand this from most people except she-who-shall-not-be-named.
We really don't want to hear where your wife goes wrong... we want to hear where Cobra goes wrong (and right), according to Cobra, and how you worked through that or built upon it
Then you haven’t listened much to me. It been a little while since I spoke about our sitch in detail, but I have discussed all that is going on in my M.
