I can't remember

[Lillieperl]

Fran, re the birthday: regardless of what he says, I would not let the day go by without acknowledgment of some kind. Card, present, special dinner-- whatever. NO party with friends. Fours want to feel bad IN SPITE of what others do for them, so if you do something for him, you'll be holding up your end of things. I read somewhere that being a male 4 is really really difficult. (And being WITH a male 4 can be really really difficult-- ask Mojo.)

karen wrote

Lil,

Your entire post makes sense to me. I'm not sure why it is the case. It is almost as if the intimate knowledge of the other through shared experiences demonstrates their "otherness" and the more shared experiences the more this becomes obvious. This is where you have to let go of any early courtship thoughts of "soul mates", being so incredibly compatible, sharing so much and recognize the other person's individuality. I guess it is to the extent that couple successfully negotiate this that makes it or doesn't.

I love the way you understand what I'm trying to say.

What I've bolded describes it very well. With these people, instead of shared knowledge and experience bring you closer and making them ACT PUBLICLY as if you're closer, they almost seem driven to act out their independency and prove they haven't fallen under the influence of the closeness.

See if this fits with you (and Fran): If there is to be a public expression of our "belongingness" to each other (i.e., the fact that we are a couple), that is also something that I must initiate. Walking up to him and taking his hand, putting his arm around me at the movies or at the synagogue, coming up to him while he's with a group and standing close to him-- this seems like "normal" (the dreaded n-word!) couple behavior to me. But he seems to need to assert through behavior that he will not behave like the typical member of a typical couple. As though he's saying, "I don't care how long we've been together, I'm still my own man, so don't expect me to act like we're a couple."

It's that old Glen Campbell song:


It's knowin' that your door is always open
And your path is free to walk
That makes me tend to leave my sleepin' bag
Rolled up and stashed behind your couch
And it's knowin' I'm not shackled
By forgotten words and bonds
And the ink stains that have dried upon some line
That keeps you in the back roads
By the rivers of my memory
That keeps you ever gentle on my mind

It's not clingin' to the rocks and ivy
Planted on their columns now that bind me
Or something that somebody said because
They thought we fit together walkin'
It's just knowing that the world
Will not be cursing or forgiving
When I walk along some railroad track and find
That you're movin' on the back roads
By the rivers of my memory
And for hours you're just gentle on my mind

Though the wheat fields and the clothes lines
And the junkyards and the highways come between us
And some other woman's cryin' to her mother
'cause she turned and I was gone
I still might run in silence
Tears of joy might stain my face
And the summer sun might burn me till I'm blind
But not to where I cannot see
You walkin' on the back roads
By the rivers flowin' gentle on my mind

I dip my cup of soup back from a gurglin' cracklin' cauldron
In some train yard
My beard a rustlin' coal pile
And a dirty hat pulled low across my face
Through cupped hands 'round a tin can
I pretend to hold you to my breast and find
That you're waitin' from the back roads
By the rivers of my memory
Ever smilin', ever gentle on my mind



The trouble is, "gentle" on someone's mind is very passive-- it's not the state of a man who wants to jump your bones... the bolded parts indicate a man who is more comfortable with simply knowing you are there without having to deal with the reality of you.

[Dom R]

Umm.. i'm sorry, but EUuu?
Mark Glen cambell down for me as "singers I dont like", then.
A whoole long song about,

"I'm a bum... literally.. and i love to screw lots of different women[some other woman's cryin' to her mother].. but I'll keep coming back to roll around with you every now and again, because you're not trying to tie me down to any commitments like marriage, [aka "shackled"] "

Yuk. Kinda surprised to see that posted here.

[OG_Lou]

Lil What I've bolded describes it very well. With these people, instead of shared knowledge and experience bring you closer and making them ACT PUBLICLY as if you're closer, they almost seem driven to act out their independency and prove they haven't fallen under the influence of the closeness.
Lil, I see some of my independent behaviors in this line of thought. Sometimes being very independent and other times only being a little independent.

One thing I can add is I act independent so I don't appear clingy/needy to BB, under BB thumb, or trying to be a suck-up so I can get something I want later. When a couple has issues with each other, I see why they are not close in public.

Maybe other guys have other reasons for acting independent. Maybe other guys didn't act as independent as your bf. Having issues when in private and together, then meeting friends, for me it is refreshing to talk with other people.

BB and I don't socialize with that many different people and when I am out, I want to meet and chat with the people that I have something in common, or share some new ideas.

After an event is over, BB and I fill each other in on what we as individuals talked about with the other person that wasn’t there and part of the conversation.

Anyway, thanks for bring up this subject.

Lou

[karen1]

Corri,

Yes I can open the door but I guess I wonder a little if I am letting in a wolf in sheeps clothing. Like what if my suspicions of a big sexual secret are what really keeps H at arms length and not a simple performance anxiety kinda issue? I wonder if I open the door and get a tepid, not very sexy vibe if it won't just throw me right over the edge. KWIM??? In part I am not offering to fill in the void because I feel like there is a "truth" that I am missing. Maybe I am totally wrong and being paranoid.

RJ,

Yep - we are the King and Queen of appropriate, cordial interaction and H seems to also want cordial sex when he wants it. I would really like a much less cordial, dirtier sex life and I can even live with a less cordial, more "real" homelife.

Dom,

What I am looking for in terms of moving forward is moving forward with the reality that is my marriage. Maybe I can agree to a companion marriage if my H were gay or otherwise not interested in me (grasping at straws for an HDW,I know). If I knew that he had a problem (physical or emotional) or was disentangling himself from an affair but wanted to work on the marriage I would know what to do. I feel as if I don't know how to work on the conundrum that is my marriage and that maybe whatever is wrong is something I can't fix and that my shots in the dark really make me a continuous fool. If I knew that there was something that was inherently "him" and not "me" or "us" then I guess I could focus on other areas of my life and consider him a friend. BTW - I know how crazy this sounds.

Karen

[karen1]

Lil,

Ooooooh yes. That is my H to a T. He asks very little from me in the way of emotional support. He wants to provide very little of that to me. He kinda gives me a "coach type" response - like here's a thorny work problem - "Walk it off". At a party if I were to come up alongside him he would never pat my butt or put his arm around my waist, he would smile warmly and include me in the convo like a party goer that he was very fond of.

Karen

[Dom R]

I feel as if I don't know how to work on the conundrum that is my marriage and that maybe whatever is wrong is something I can't fix and that my shots in the dark really make me a continuous fool. If I knew that there was something that was inherently "him" and not "me" or "us" then I guess I could focus on other areas of my life and consider him a friend. BTW - I know how crazy this sounds.

Karen: I salute you, as a still caring, and committed wife.

The only thing that sounds crazy to me, is that you are still "operating in the dark", and you havent shared your feelings and concerns with your husband yet.

Other than fear of the unknown.. what is stopping you from talking to him about it tonight?

(i mean come on.. waiting for a full year over this? _that_s crazy no sex for 6 months, would have been enough of a point)



Another thought: In some ways, it seems like you want to "fix" your husband, yet at the same time, you are worried about finding out the truth of what might be "broken".
Well.. not looking at it.. doesnt make the problem go away. Whatever the issue is.. you're still suffering from it. Knowing what it is, wont make you suffer any deeper in that area.
You might "suffer" the loss of "hope". But what good is hope, if you dont act on it?

O course, there's a whole nuther issue about whether it's your responsability to actually "fix" your husband, or rather, whether it is your responsbility to bring up your own issues(lack of sex & initiation) to your husband and ask for help with them.

To my mind... yes, it is a responsability for you to bring them up to your husband. I think that both spouses are equally responsible for the "care and feeding" of their marriage. If you dont bring up problems that you are having with the marriage, then there is a high probability that they will never get fixed.
That means that a choice to "not bring up problems", is a direct cause of the marriage not improving. Thus, not bringing up problems, is "not caring for the marriage"

I think the #1 problem for women in a marriage, is the assumption, "Well, if my husband Really Loved Me, he would just KNOW about my problem,and fix it!!"
Trouble is, no amount of love, is going to turn someone into a mindreader. And on top of that: Men are Dumb.

A man needs to know about a problem, before he can work on fixing it. And 9 times out of 10, the only way he will know there is a problem in the marriage, is if his wife tells him.
Half the time, he is trying to "show his love" in ways that are the exact opposite of what the wife needs. It's not a lack of love that's the problem: it's the lack of open communication that's the problem there.

[karen1]

Dom,

I have brought these issues to my H's attention time and time again. I have stated my preferred frequency (2-4x/week) time and time again. I have had my concerns deflected over and over.
I hear what you are saying - "benign neglect" isn't so benign and I agree. I guess I wanted to let him allow things to deteriorate to such a ridiculous degree that even he, a "data" kinda guy could see the problem. Previously the problem of sex 1 or 2x/month was explained away as "too busy, stressed, there was this problem or that" - well, a year gets pretty hard to explain.

And I have zero desire to fix him. I will do what I can to fix me and my contributions to the problem. I will support him if he has an issue that he needs to fix. Trouble is I don't know what the problem is and whose court it falls into in what way. I am a mental health professional and so fixing is what I do. However, I try to cut a wide swath around "fixing" my own spouse. I am not always successful at keeping from advice giving and fixing behaviors but I really try. BTW - my H claims not to see me as "needy" and "high maintenance" but that is how I feel when I am always the one to bring this stuff up.

The thing that prevents me from bringing this up tonight is one look at my H's calendar for the week. He has multiple evening meetings, many of them involving intense type issues. IMO when a person insists on bringing up something this emotional and they do so at a time that is so clearly bad it is a form of emotional abuse. Mostly women do this to men and I think it is crappy.

This weekend might be an ok time to discuss things. I really have to figure out how to approach it.

Karen

[Dom R]

I have brought these issues to my H's attention time and time again. I have stated my preferred frequency (2-4x/week) time and time again. I have had my concerns deflected over and over.
...
Previously the problem of sex 1 or 2x/month was explained away as "too busy, stressed, there was this problem or that" - well, a year gets pretty hard to explain.

Ugh.

Sounds like a problem with his priorities.
and/or the children bogged him down emotionally.

out of curiosity, how did you bring it up to him before?
What kind of language?

"honey, did you know that I would enjoy sex 4 times a week?"

or did you ever take it to the level of, "Look, I'm not getting what I need, as a person, sexually, out of this marriage right now. (and not for a long time now, either!)"

I'm wondering, because you phrased his response as "dismissing your concerns". That doesnt sound like he really understood that this is something you need, not just "a concern".

I'm also wondering if he actually "gets it", that women do have a real sex drive, too.

[Lillieperl]

Umm.. i'm sorry, but EUuu?
Mark Glen cambell down for me as "singers I dont like", then.
A whoole long song about,

"I'm a bum... literally.. and i love to screw lots of different women[some other woman's cryin' to her mother].. but I'll keep coming back to roll around with you every now and again, because you're not trying to tie me down to any commitments like marriage, [aka "shackled"] "

Yuk. Kinda surprised to see that posted here.

Dom, I hope you didn't get the impression that I posted this song because I like it or endorse the sentiment it expresses. Did you think I posted it because I like Glen Campbell???

The reason I posted it is because it describes, as you said, a type of guy who wants to keep his independence and keep the woman to whom he is singing as a fantasy, someone he can come home to without any responsibility, who will make no demands on him.

And to second your comment: "EUuuu" indeed.

[Lillieperl]

Lil,

Ooooooh yes. That is my H to a T. He asks very little from me in the way of emotional support. He wants to provide very little of that to me. He kinda gives me a "coach type" response - like here's a thorny work problem - "Walk it off". At a party if I were to come up alongside him he would never pat my butt or put his arm around my waist, he would smile warmly and include me in the convo like a party goer that he was very fond of.

Karen

This is interesting... I have noticed that my bf asks very little of me. Because we're not married and have our separate houses and our finances are not mingled, this is pretty comfortable for me. Whatever I do for him is a gift. He doesn't seem to have a sense of entitlement where I am concerned. I think this meshes perfectly with my ambivalence about too much togetherness. Toward the end of my H's life I read a book that touted the desirability of a man and woman becoming "One" in pretty much all respects. I got so furious when I read it that I threw it away (very unlike me to throw away a book). It was absolutely NOT what I wanted. My late H and my bf (and I) are all only children. I definitely have mixed feelings about closeness... thus the sitch I find myself in.

But another example of that independence of his and his resistance to behaving like a boyfriend (when we're out, you can tell he's very uncomfortable introducing me as his "girlfriend") is the birthday card he gave me this year. The front says: "Friends can say 'I love you,' too..." and inside it says, "And I do."

I guess he doesn't see that that card is what you give a FRIEND. Last Valentine's Day, he gave me the most beautiful card I've EVER gotten, with lots of mushy sentiments-- I loved it! And to repeat my original point, you'd expect cards to get mushier over the years, not more distant.

Life is a mystery...