Dang, I wrote a really long and involved reply and lost it.
Martelo - your thinking is most similar to mine.
I don't snoop because of personal ethics and the reality that it probably wouldn't hold the answers anyway. Anything I might uncover would only hold a small part of the story. What if I did find gay porn or porn of particular kink or whatever? Maybe it is simply fantasy material, maybe it was a one time look see or maybe it represents a real unfulfilled wish. What if I uncover a PA or an EA? OK - this is the one thing that might actually help to know but I feel that this is actually the least likely thing.
Is H gay? Possibly but probably not. If he is he doesn't think so. He experimented once years ago and didn't get an E. He left seminary for a girl, because he didn't like the church's structure and because he hated that all the clearly gay priests were not celibate but they expected everyone else to be (hypocrisy). Is it possible that he is somewhere along the sexual continuum that isn't exactly straight? Probably. He may have some gay type fantasies or whatever. Is this necessarily a deal breaker? I don't know.
I think it is equally likely that he is hiding some other sexual secret - porn addiction, past sexual abuse, a particular kink, severe madonna/whore complex, severe issues related to inadequate sexual development. Is this a deal breaker? Again I don't know.
If there were a sexual secret that we could bring out and deal with things might work much better.
H is steryotypically masculine, Alpha, refused to see Brokeback Mountain because he shies away from specific references to gay sex but will laugh at movies that involve gay humor, laughs because a lot of his relatives thought he was gay because he waited so long to marry, is a terrible dresser, not Metrosexual at all, has a gay best friend, etc... As Lil said - what makes someone gay is preferring to have sex with someone of the same sex and nothing else. My H is probably too puritanical to fit in with most gays even if he is gay - he HATES casual sexuality in anyone. I have seen him clearly attracted to another woman on a couple of occasions (not many) and he kept art from one exgf in the house FOREVER until I pushed the issue.
Why don't I let it be known that I would like a good screw? Several reasons (a)we aren't on birth control and need to discuss future procreation - I'm a no and he's a "if it happens it happens", (b)don't want a pity screw and (c)the bigger issues loom larger than my libido right now and (d)I wanted to see what would happen if I just quit trying and here we are.
Journey,
You haven't discussed much about your sitch and I understand the need to keep things private but I would appreciate your posting what worked in rattling the tree. H is a master at sidestepping, redirecting and otherwise derailing these issues.
Currently I am considering seeing a sex therapist for a few sessions to discuss things. I can't even get H alone to discuss any of this and if I directly ask to talk I have to do everything to make it happen too. I won't ask to talk again until I know what I want - thus, the therapist.
Lil,
About the legacy thing. H should have lived in a commune. He likes groups. He doesn't deal well in small numbers and the marital dyad seems the most restrictive of all to him. He likes to have scads of people around almost all the time. I think he views his ideal as living VERY close with all of our grown kids, their families and so on like in farming communities. This group dynamic has always made intimacy a challenge.
I am feeling at this time like I would just like to know the truth. What if we could have a real negotiation around these issues. I would rather H say - "Hey hon, I love you and I want to stay married but what really turns me on is sex with farm animals so how about I have sex with farm animals and you have a boyfriend and we raise our kids together" than continue this way. I guess what I'm saying is that I have an ideal but I am willing to discuss other things even if they are unconventional.
BTW - baby boy is rolling over and is the cutest baby ever born and I will never be sorry that I had him or DD3 no matter what kind of kink H might have.
Karen, how lovely of you to take our sometimes over-the-top comments with such grace. Of course, I knew you would because you are so full of grace yourself.
This:
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H is steryotypically masculine, Alpha, refused to see Brokeback Mountain because he shies away from specific references to gay sex but will laugh at movies that involve gay humor, ... My H is probably too puritanical to fit in with most gays even if he is gay - he HATES casual sexuality in anyone.
also describes my bf to a T. OTOH he is a wonderful dresser with great taste, he was married for 25 years. She was into alcohol and drugs, but not to the extent that he was. He is also very prudish and doesn't even like sexy humor. He despises promiscuity in any form. His mom slept around some while raising him alone. He used to go in his room and stick his fingers in his ears so he couldn't hear. He just doesn't associate much that's pleasant and safe with sex. My bf also has an adolescent quality about him that it sounds like your H has a bit of.
What is your H's R with his mom like?
Fran, it sounds like something serious is going on with your H.
You haven't discussed much about your sitch and I understand the need to keep things private but I would appreciate your posting what worked in rattling the tree. H is a master at sidestepping, redirecting and otherwise derailing these issues.
Karen, When I came to this board, I was very HD, irrationally HD for me, due to a few factors that had come together. I wanted a sexual relationship with my H after years of having little to no intimacy. My H was stubborn, resistant and mean. In the preceding years he had gotten increasingly irritable and angry...I should have opened my eyes then, but I attritubed it to life changes and stress, and somehow or other, I had gotten acclimated to it all. It's amazing to me now how I just let it go....above all else, my H is really a very endearing man, a real sweetie pie, and he had changed so much. And now that I was challenging him, his defenses were like barbed wires to my soul. I had a feeling he was hiding something. I had the feeling in th beginning but got nowhere and let it drop, but watching other people's situations here, well, things would hit home. So I started really getting on his case, observing everything. Remember, too, that I was ready to leave the marriage, and he was starting to unravel from the pressure of it all.
Now, you and I may disagree here, but I did snoop. Checked cell phones. Phone records. Schedules. Computer. ( Lil, if you remember, you once kind of laughed at my suggestion to someone else to get online and check cell phone records...you see, I was getting savvy). And NOP, your voice was in my head all the while.
Eventually I did find something, and that led to H telling me his involvement with OW, that he wanted her out of his life but wanted to be a friend too. And this is sooo my H...friend to the world, but missing the boat in terms of protecting and caring for me.
I did find clues to his sexuality through this fantasy relationship. My feeling is that H wanted a partner who had some "male attributes" in terms of direction and ambition. His father was an alcoholic, a poor provider, and he was scared of falling short himself. When he married me, he saw someone who could lead the way...until I didn't. He wasn't able to help me out with my depression, and more resentment and distance grew. For both of us. He flew into a fantasy where he was seen as " the man." I could go on and on with this, but I'll stop here to say that it was the confronting and shaking up that got me the answers. And like you, I am not afraid of them...I just want the truth, and I can work with that.
I appreciate that. I don't know how much grace I have. I have occasionally involved myself in conflicts on this board that haven't bettered me or anyone else. Besides, it doesn't surprise me that someone would wonder. Heck, I have wondered myself. At the end of the day it seems like a cop out of an answer, "I'm so wonderful that if he doesn't want me he must be gay."
Funny, my H's Mom was a bit on the neglectful side also. After her divorce from his Dad when he was young she dated a lot and just kinda left some cold McDonalds on the table for the kids. She was a nurse and worked really hard, a terrible housekeeper. She kept an active, hateful conflict going with the Dad. Eventually H went to live with Dad and StepMom which wasn't a whole lot better. He doesn't completely lack for female role models - has some Aunts he really likes and respects. Overall, the Mother role wasn't so well done in his life. He maintains a cordial, distant, 1 visit/year R with his Mom now. She calls and leaves 5minute poor me voice mails every couple of weeks.
At the end of the day it seems like a cop out of an answer, "I'm so wonderful that if he doesn't want me he must be gay."
While I believe you are wonderful, this isn't the point.
The point is that for your H to go a whole year without wanting sex means that something is out of whack WITH HIM. Especially when he says he wants more children. Your abundance of wonderfulness or lack of same are unrelated to his basic lack of interest in sex with you. I know that about my bf, too.
A partner IN a relationship who doesn't want sex for a whole year is coming from a place inside him/herself that is not related to the other person.
Re FOO, the lack of good, healthy mothering from your H's (and my bf's) mom probably plays into this. My bf does not have a good feeling in general about women. His default condition seems to be to see the whole gender as The Enemy until each individual woman proves herself otherwise, and even then that does not generalize to other women.
RJ, I don't remember "laughing" at the suggestion that someone should check out their partner's cell phone records. Sounds like a dumb thing for me to say.
Yes - I know that there is real "data" here that suggests a problem.
However, RJ's description helped. She's describing a guy who "changed". I'm describing a guy whose already low libido got even lower. Makes me think this is not a problem of a new EA or PA but rather a more systemic type problem.
I'll have to think on things. One thing that I need to think about is how to nurture myself because I suspect that we are about to go through some tough times. I'm less given to the snooping plan because the lengths I would have to go to would make me feel rather disengenous but forthright honesty would be a start.
K, Thes past few posts have brought to mind something puzzling pertaining to my H's FOO. When I met H, he was very close to his mother and had conflict with his father. His mother was the emotionally giving one. Over time, and certainly in the last few yrs, my H seems to have developed a lot of resentment toward his mother, while he embraces any crumbs his father sends his way. I cringe when he says something bad about his mother because I remember how she was with him. I just don't get it.
Hhmmmmmmmmm, sometimes that is because over time we find out that the more sympathetic spouse in a M isn't without fault or blame. Sometimes kids (who have become adults) get very angry about one parent's allowing or tolerating things in the R or more specifically slights toward the children and stayed silent. Sometimes kids get very angry with the "long suffering" parent. I'm not saying that this is the reason but I wonder if it might fit. My Dad is a case in point. He often gets angry with his Mom for being "weak" and "ineffectual" in her family and in life. She died when I was young so I don't know much in the way of particulars but I gather that my Grandfather on that side was a Mama's boy who let my Great Grandma (who was a tough old bird) run his life - she survived both of them.
Hhmmmmmmmmm, sometimes that is because over time we find out that the more sympathetic spouse in a M isn't without fault or blame. Sometimes kids (who have become adults) get very angry about one parent's allowing or tolerating things in the R or more specifically slights toward the children and stayed silent. Sometimes kids get very angry with the "long suffering" parent. I'm not saying that this is the reason but I wonder if it might fit. My Dad is a case in point. He often gets angry with his Mom for being "weak" and "ineffectual" in her family and in life. She died when I was young so I don't know much in the way of particulars but I gather that my Grandfather on that side was a Mama's boy who let my Great Grandma (who was a tough old bird) run his life - she survived both of them.
