Is it time to cut him off?

[Nugget]

Sounds like there are a lot of mixed signals and mis communication between you two. Not that that is abnormal for our Sit's. It is just frustrating. We think we are doing one thing and the S is receiving it this way, when in fact it is having the exact opposite effect. I guess that is were open and honest communication comes into play. But, it almost seems like open honest talk about how we feel goes against the principal of no R talk. D*mn catch 22's.

Anyhow I think your argument/conversation will be helpful to your sitch.

[Trixi]

I guess that is were open and honest communication comes into play. But, it almost seems like open honest talk about how we feel goes against the principal of no R talk.

Isn't it a pickle?! It can make a person nuts.

I certainly hope the convo it didn't hurt anything.

I really lost it this afternoon. Last night we had talked about him going to get bacon and mochas this morning and I would make breakfast. By the time we got up and he did some stuff, it was late'ish (after 1) and he goes "Well, I'm gonna go soon." I was so upset. (More so than I should have been.) I was hungry and disappointed. I started crying. Ugh.

He did give me a hug. Asked why I was upset. And I told him that I was hungry and mad. He asked about what and I said "everything".
Luckily, by the time he actually left we were discussing the logistics for next weekend, so I guess I didn't screw anything up too bad with my meltdown.

[Nugget]

You did not screw anything up. If anything you both have a better understanding of each other (a little bit anyway). In a way crude way you were both open and honest with each other, even if it was done with anger and frustration.

I am sorry that you breakfast plans did not go through. I know all to well how it feels to have a well laid out plan go sour. You just have to plan for the best, but be ready for the worst. But, more importantly right now at this point in our relationship we have to have NO EXPECTATIONS, only our best efforts.

[BryanS]

I guess that is were open and honest communication comes into play. But, it almost seems like open honest talk about how we feel goes against the principal of no R talk.

Isn't it a pickle?! It can make a person nuts.

I've been going through this exact thing recently and thought I was the only one. The DB principles are great and they got me going down the right path but I have found that I can't blindly apply them to my sitch. I deviated a little last night and talked R, very lightly, with W and it went over well. She mentioned that she felt like I had been distant the past week or so and that it was good to talk about something more important than what I did that day. I think when you spend enough time really trying to internalize this DB mindset, you apply the principles even when it doesn't seem like you are. We know our S's better than anyone else on this board so we know when it's time to go a little emotionally deeper with them. This seemed to go against DB to me at first and I had a hard time with it but then I thought the way I'm doing it isn't the way I used to do it. There's a lot less need in me when I speak to W, there's a lot more calm and so even though the thing under discussion is the same, the method is different. That to me seems like the heart of DB and SBT, finding a new way to approach an issue that works.

[Dom R]

Hiya Agent... Morning fly-by thoughts for you:

1. Told You So
If you had gone dark on him,it would have been even worse than now. He's confused right now, that you havent been calling him. he has interpreted that as "you arent very attached to him anyway".

Side note: this hints that he is an insecure man, not an "alpha" type man. He's insecure/low drive about pursuing women. This would fit in with all your original "dating" history, that you had to pursue HIM. It says that maybe he's not the pursuing type. file this away in your little "facts about him" file. becuase this should factor in any future large decisions about the two of you, or any "is he A, or B" attempts to figure out his motivations.

2. LISTEN TO HIM about your family.
Being dragged along to your family's thing, every year seems like a long-standing point of resentment to him.
You might consider just plain not going this year, if he offers you a (you and your children) alternative. Yeah, he said he "isnt ready for that".
Well.. dont pressure him,or even bring it up much... but I woudl suggest being ready to take him up on any offer, or hint of an offer from him, if he chooses to make one.


3. "expectations are bad". But what makes them bad,is the silent, unstated nature of them.
You have an expectation that he will call you more during the week. Maybe, he doesnt even understand that expectation.
(Dom's rule #1 of DB-ing: Men Are Dumb )
Also, you have a self-expectation,that you "shouldnt call him, or bother him" during the week. Maybe, now that you are "dating", that shouldnt be the case any more.

I think you should consider talking to him more directly.
about this stuff. If you do, i think it is important for you to bring it up in an athmosphere not of, "Here's What I Expect", but rather, something like,"I was going on these assumptions: maybe we had some crossed wires.. I dont want to make invalid assumptions any more,so what are your views on this?"



4. reguarding his appartment; I think you need to mention in some way, that you were respecting what seemed to be HIS choice about it: you figured that if he wanted you to know where it is, he would have invited you.
I dont think it's a good idea to encourage the whole "I dont want to see it" attitude, btw.

5.
"I need to decide if I can't live without you".

Ok, this is just about the stupidest biggest pile of "romanticized" marital CRAP that is out there :-P
This is the WRONG attitude for "should I marry/stay married".
I think that you seriously need to mention that this is a "hollywood" type of rationale for marriage,and since when did "hollywood" marriages ever last?

The next time any kind of "his process" talk comes up, I think it would be a Very Good Thing, for you to share some alternative viewpoints on why people might choose to get married, and what actually helps a marriage LAST.
It would be Really Helpful, if you could figure out some people that you (ideally both) know, who have been married a long time, and who are happy with each other now. Then get THEIR opinion on that stuff.

His statement immplicitly says, "when two people dont feel 'in love' any more, they shouldnt be married any more". Which is a guaranteed disaster for a marriage. So if he's basing his decision making on that pile... even if he does come back, he will leave you later.
He's got to find a better framework for marriage, that is both a sound framework, AND sounds good to him.


final thoughts for the post:

I think it's good you had the 'R' talk. still try not to loose PMI, even through the frustration.

PS: I had a slight "up"swing in my rollercoaster last night. hopefuly, it will stay positive, through our trip this next weekend

[Nugget]

Bryan, you will notice, well you are kind of noticing, that the DB principals are only a guide for use, they are not law. They are there to point is the correct direction. Like you are finding out everyone's sitch is different, yet similar, but our partners and we all act and react differently and the principals need to be tweaked a bit to fit our individual sitch.

[BryanS]

(Dom's rule #1 of DB-ing: Men Are Dumb )

Michelle should have that front and center in her book. In fact, that should be front and center in every book on R. I'm working on my second masters degree but when it comes to M or R, I'm a brick. You ladies give us too much credit for understanding subtleties.

[Dom R]

urk. you wrote a lot, and I think that, long though my post was, I still left a few important things addressed :-/

first off: Good Job on calling him on his "i dont have any choice" garbage, about tearing up your family.
It makes no sense to contradict him in any way about his feelings... but it's important not to just silently let bogus justifications for splitting up, go by. If you stay silent, that means that you 'agree'.

lastly...

I am angry that he is basically leaving me no choice but to go to Plan B.

ok, now you're trying to use the "no choice" cop-out.

Gimme a break, girl! :P

My wife moved out, she spoke to me maybe twice a week, for 5 minutes total per week, when we exchanged the children. for 2 months..
Did I "have a choice" about going to plan B or not? Yes, i had a choice. and I still chose not to.

So, quit your whining about "no choice"

Ironically, though, "plan B" might actually work well for you in your situation. I'm not saying that there's no way it would work. I'm just saying that you DO have a "choice" in the matter.
What you DONT have a choice about, is how long you would have to STICK to plan B, or whether it would ultimately be successful, or what kind of side effects it might have.

[Trixi]

Regarding him being an alpha male-- he doesn't need to be. He is extremely attractive and charming, so women basically come on to him.

Regarding the family thing--yes, he is VERY resentful about that. Like he said "We should have gone with my parents last year but YOU wouldn't let us." I said I understood, I was very sorry and I would go anywhere he wanted this year. That is what prompted that he isn't ready to do that. *sigh*

Regarding feeling like he is backing me into a plan B--you are right, it would be my CHOICE. Good call on your part. I think that if I am going to show any self-respect, I will be forced into it. He says he needs to miss me, decide if he can't live without me, etc. If I continue to give him sex and comfort him when he feels lonely, what will make him realize what he would lose if I wasn't there? He says that he doesn't want to "lead me on" and that he doesn't have any idea if we will end up together. (I don't actually think the odds are in my favor.) He also said that if 'this is too hard' for me, then I can let him know.

[Trixi]

Dom, do you feel comfortable enough to share more?