Mojo, I was thinking what you said, but I'm glad you said it first. I second it. We've been following your situation for a LONG time and know more background than many recent arrivals to this board. (And no all LD people are NOT gay.)
I'm thinking of that very close male friend of your H's who is almost on the same level as you in your H's life. Is that guy still in y'all's life?
Your H may be gay and may not fully realize and/or accept it. Since you're Catholic (you are, aren't you? I seem to remember that he was in the seminary) he may be trying to wish it away, ignore it, or pray it away.
I had a gay male friend who was married twice. I said to him, "I can understand once, but TWICE?" He said, "I wanted to be a father." He was a lovely guy. He and his second wife had a beautiful daughter. They divorced and he came out. But the whole family remained very close. His ex did said to him, "If you wind up with a woman, I will hunt you down and kill you." Hmmm...
Sorry, Karen, but I've had this idea about your H for a couple of years.
He's a pouter and a prima donna He actually DOES have a limp wrist He acts, as Mojo, put it "feminine top" People who knew him asked me if he was gay when they knew we were "friends" He is LD He claims to have had a happy childhood (which I believe because his parents are sweetie-pies) yet there is some huge hurt in his life that needs covering up with alcohol dependence. He absolutely refused to go see Brokeback Mountain ETA: When I first met H he was this flamboyant character that liked to dress in well cut suits from thrift shops (no money for the real deal) and wear matching ties and pocket hankerchiefs. He has more than once described a man to me as "attractive" as in You'd like X he's very attractive. He acts quite submissive to other men socially, i.e. he laughs a lot at what other guys say. His dad told me more than once that they'd always had him down as "not the marrying kind". When I think about it a lot of the excitement and flamboyance went out of his character pretty quickly after we married.
I confronted him with this idea one time, but he laughed outright and said NO. (But then he would wouldn't he if he's in denial). It could explain a lot about his avoidant behaviours and the way he will temporarily come out of his shell and then retreat again. Like he's saying "OK, lets give this another shot. " and then "Aaaargh, I can't hack it".
Fran
Last edited by haphazard; 09/23/0708:55 AM.
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
Mojo, I was thinking what you said, but I'm glad you said it first. I second it. We've been following your situation for a LONG time and know more background than many recent arrivals to this board. (And no all LD people are NOT gay.)
Sorry Mojo, I opened my mouth before reading Karen's whole story. I must like the taste of shoe leather
He acts quite submissive to other men socially, i.e. he laughs a lot at what other guys say.
Yeah, I thought the same gay thing about my H, and this statement is SO him. He's also shy, embarrasses easily, and is physically awkward. He's made up for this in true achiever style by working out religiously. It's hard for him to make male friends...he gravitates to the ladies, where he is seen as a good listener.
I think in choosing non-threatening men, we also chose men who don't know how to assert their sexuality, for one reason or another. And when we shake things up, not only does it help us move on with our journey, it helps them to do the same.
I don't believe that your H is gay. If he lived in an earlier era, he would be what was referred to as a "dandy". I think that he is heterosexual but just more "top" than "alpha". IMO, the best way to figure out how Alpha a guy is to observe how he interacts with children. You have indicated that your H actually "fights' with your kids on their level. Very bad sign in my opinion. I think the more Alpha a guy is the more he will give off a protective, responsible or even semi-maternal vibe around children, although both kinds of guys can playfully interact with kids at times.
OTOH, I think Karen's husband is Alpha but also gay. Our society just doesn't do a very good job of recognizing that men can be both Alpha and gay.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I think many guys can have the traits described above and not be gay. The tipoff that a guy is gay is not how he talks, walks, whether he likes show tunes or wearing pink, whether he has close friends who are men, whether he'd rather watch a John Wayne movie or a Liza Minelli movie.
The tipoff is that he does not want to have sex with women. Or with A woman that he is in a serious R with.
Believe me, I've asked myself a thousand times about my bf. With the skewed R he has with his mom, his drop-dead good looks, the fact that I know he had a homosexual experience at least once as a teen, AND a gay uncle who came on to him... yeah, I've wondered. He's also very much a homophobe, and has only recently relaxed enough to laugh out loud at Will and Grace. Yes, I've wondered. But he has the history of drugs and alcohol, and the heart disease manifesting in ED-- and I'm assuming (or pretending) that those are the causes of his reticence. Also, there's been some progress in that department. He is showing signs of arousal, and even a teeny bit of initiating. He's also in therapy. Long winded comment... sorry.
Karen, I'm truly puzzled as to why your H wants more children? If it turns out the gay thing is true, then establishing himself as a father with a legacy to leave may be very important to his sense of personal legitimacy. Also, if he only has gay feelings but does not act on them with men (or with his friend) then he may feel he's successfully "handling" them.
"After all, I fathered two children-- how can I be gay?"
I feel like I've gone WAY too far here... let me apologize in advance for coming on so strong... I AM very sorry you're hurting-- that's the main thing...
Karen I am sorry you are going through such a funk. Being in a SSM stinks so much. I can remember after my son was born you would think the guys are climbing the walls waiting for the 6 weeks to come. My husband never said a word. But then again I had been taking care of him during those 2 weeks.
But to go for a year and not say anything to you. Not try anything. I think it could be a possibility that the gay thing could be a factor. I have been one that is familiar with your situation by reading here for awhile. OR as much as you may hate to think it there could possibly be someone on the side or an addiction to porn. Karen if I were you I would start to do some heavy snooping. I know you said it is hard as it is his work computer at home. But there has to be a way. I think you need to snoop for your own piece of mind.
Have you tried talking to him at all? I think that has been one of your biggest mistakes is not taking this on a very serious tone with him. He may not honestly know how much this hurts you.
Karen, I just wanted to let you know I so feel for you. I have 3 boys, ages 7, 3 and 18 months. H is deployed for a year and this past weekend I felt horrible, physically, but I think physically b/c I felt so horrible mentally.
It happens to all of us moms. It isn't easy. Then w/ you being HD and your H not wanting to have any SL, you don't have that "out" for just getting some steam out of your system, you know?
I just wanted you to know that, as far as the mom stuff goes, it's normal! I have a friend at work (unfortunately they're moving) who I can swap stories with so that I can actually remember that I'm "normal" in the mom department. Raising children is not an easy task, along w/ everything else.
Me: 38 H: 35 S4, S5, S10 Bomb 01/07 Wanted D - nothing would change his mind Numerous A's prior to D bomb; EA prior/during D bomb Piecing 04/07 Deployed for a year 05/07 Still Piecing 2010 M 11 yrs 05/10
I'm not a big fan of spying on ones spouse or nosing around unless their is reason to believe that they are lying about something. I don't think hes had a chance to answer any questions.
If you goto your husbands computer and look to see what kind of porn he's been looking at then what? Your going to have to confront him either with what you've found offensive or you're going to have to stuff your knowledge of what he's viewing. If you choose to stuff it you're driving a further wedge in the relationship.
I would want you to deal with the issue head on if you'd like a good screw as much as you say you would let it be known in the plainest most graphic detail what you want. If you're waiting for him to make a move you're just going to be avoiding the issue.
As far as the idea that your husband is gay I don't know what to say sexual identity is pretty difficult subject when you try to get specific in some situations. I know that it must be very difficult for women who find themselves in a situation where their guy doesn't behave in the way that it seems all guys do. Thinking about sex every six seconds and the incredible appetite that most men report to having.
An answer to the ? of "is he a closeted gay man hiding behind a screen of a hetro relationship" may give you answer to the sex starvation but maybe next to impossible to get. It may be the case and it may just be that you would like to see some more masculine and less soft attributes from him.
I don't know how you can change a person but I do know that you have got to bring your unhappiness and what your needs into to the light. I don't know if you have done this, f you have rattled the cage or if you have the energy to do so. It would be nice if we didn't ever have to these things but it's just not the case.
I don't know if even H knows if he is gay or not. I think that could be part of the problem.
I'm not sure I understand what "top" means as opposed to "alpha".
If you believe the theory that sexuality is a spectrum from straight to queer, where a lot of people find themselves somewhat further from the straight end of the spectrum than they care to admit, then I think it is possible that my H is borderline gay and in deep denial about it.
When H first asked me out it was to go to a drive in where they showed the Rocky Horrow Picture Show and everyone (including the guys) dressed in stockings and basques. He took me and another girl along, I guess so as too make it more of a fun thing to do than a pervy thing to do.
We used to do some pretty kinky things in bed, early on. Basically role reversal stuff. He would wear lingerie, I would act quite dominatrix - that kind of thing. It was pretty hot. Anyhow, at some point he grew unconfortable with it so we stopped. I don't know why he didn't want to do it anymore - we never really discussed it. Anyway since then I have asked about what kind of stuff he would like to do and he never expresses any kind of preference. Sometimes I have ideas and we go with it, but he will never express any ideas of his own. Just things like "I like to please you" or "whatever you like".
Having read about 2 pages of the Deida book, I have got as far as understanding about masculine and feminine polarity and how the sex is hot when there is strong opposing polarity. I believe that was the case early in our R, the polarity was reversed but it was strong. At some point, and perhaps gradually, he grew unwilling to maintain that position and wanted to assert more of his masculinity. But that seems to have placed us in less polarised more androgenous roles in which neither of us seem satisfied. Maybe I would find it hard to adapt to the truly feminine woman role. I would say he is finding it difficult and may even be unwilling to adapt to the truly masculine man role. When Mojo's H said he was unwilling to be the "stereotypical man" in the marriage that really rung a bell with me, because I believe my H too is in this position.
Currently H's walls are well and truly up. There is zero communication between us. He went on his dive trip, looked like he'd had a good time. The next day (Sunday) we had a birthday party for D6. He mucked in and helped in a very businesslike fasion but all the while sighing and looking miserable unless directly interacting with the kids. Just before we were ready to leave to go to the party he was sitting waiting for the kids to get their shoes on with just the most miserable and dejected look on his face. I thought I better ask him that night what was on his mind.
So party over we went to bed and I said "are you OK?". H just said "I'm fine" in that kind of voice that just means go away. So I was quiet for a bit. Then I said "I only ask because you seemed so miserable when you were waiting for the kids to be ready". He said nothing. That was it, after a bit he seemed to fall asleep. I had been trying hard to be open and relaxed, just breathing gently and not let it get to me. Be open to anything he might say and not put my own walls up. But no dice.
Fran p.s. Sorry for the hijack Karen
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
