Does H know you keep this stuff? Do you collect the good things he does too? If he knows you keep all of his "mistakes" then I would be willing to bet that it kills all of his self esteem. It would for me, wouldnt it for you?
You are in a very confusing situation right now. H wants you to make sure he doesnt screw up, but he also lies about it if you catch him. Does that really mean that he wants you checking on him like that? I really dont know. Is there a way of going about it w/out it being like a parenting role? Such as letting him know that you wont stand for it, but you arent going to play his mommy and scold him for doing these things?
FLoyd The grass is always GREENER over the septic tank.
I think I responded to some of your very valid points in an earlier post, just didn't give you credit.
Thanks for seeing the bigger picture, and reminding me that I WILL be okay, I do know that. I'm just a little shaken by these latest twists...wondering IF H really can make the changes along with me. Sigh.
Oh yes, we have a C appointment on Thursday...wonder how that's going to go???
SB -- You ARE in a confusing sitch, girl, but you are gonna figure it out (heck, we're going to help). Before I offer my 2 cents again let me say upfront that your H. is making me mad but when I look inside myself and remember that he is acting out of fear, I feel sad for him instead...
OK -- This morning I was listening to Dr. Phil's Relationship Rescue. In it, he says that when a couple gets into a destructive pattern, it's because they're both gaining something from it -- despite bemoaning that it's "not working". The example that he gave was a jealous wife who constantly questioned her H's whereabouts (obsessively). He said that even tho' they both complained about the situation, W. got constant validation from H. that SHE was the only one and H. got a constant ego boost from W's incessant asking.
The reason why I'm bringing this up is because your H's statement that YOU enabled his behavior by not being more suspicious INFURIATES me but I think is also a VERY important clue into some stuff.
For some reason, your H. seems to NEED you to question him -- he makes it sound as though that is the only way for him to keep on the straight and narrow -- but is it more than that? In other words, is it less that he needs you confronting him in order to confess and more that he needs to hear that you care? And he needs to hear it in words?
I'm going to be blunt -- I think that setting up a dynamic where you HAVE to ask the right questions at the right time with the right intesity to KEEP your H. from bad behavior is just not healthy. At least, I know it wouldn't be for me -- so let me say it that way! I don't think that you can (or should) carry the burden for his faithfulness.
What are your thoughts now? I meant to start this post by asking you what YOU think you should do....
I think that this is a powerful phase for you guys -- try not to dwell on what you perceive as H's weakness -- he may just be asking for what he needs...
Sage
Quoting shinybear: Floyd,
I agree with you and MAL that this latest "LIE" was totally fear driven....It just dismays me that he still lies out of fear,and over something that is so very minor (I admire him for helping this woman through a rough patch, I told him so) after everything that happened this week!
But as someone said it probably popped out in a 1/2 second and couldn't be taken back. It is his usual mode and will probably take time, thought, and therapy to break.
Floyd, as for all the questions and pushing on my part, this is exactly what H ASKED ME TO DO!!! Totally anti-DB, I KNOW!
But as I mentioned earlier, he said that when I hauled out the duct tape, didn't raise suspicions I had, over the past half year, that I "enabled" him to continue on that path.
I felt really bad when he said that. Like he couldn't take responsibility, stand up, end things, tell me....unless I made demands and found him out...or, as things turned out both times, until the OW called and spilled the beans.
I felt like all my DBing efforts just dragged this whole thing out. I don't really believe that, frankly, if I'd acted on suspicions this way months ago, I don't know HOW it would have went down. But H says it would have all come out and he would have ended it!!!
Are you starting to see the confusing position I'm in right now?
If I back off, trust him implicitly, I may be "enabling" him to do no good. Remember, please, just how many times I've been lied to.
As for the e-mails, yep you have a point Floyd. I'm a bit compulsive when it comes to saving things...it's not like I read them over and over and ruminate, it's just something I feel compelled to do....lowers my anxiety in the moment.
Plus, I suppose, there is an edge of self-interest, in keeping "evidence" of his follies, should that help me in the dreadful possibility of a future D.
Gotta find some balance somewhere.
Shiny
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
read your thread, lots of good advice here already. One thing I noticed in yours and other's threads is you don't mention your changes.
Quote: Arguements over my sarcasm, perfectionism, anger, controlling, sexual issues.
Lieing is usually done to avoid the anger. What have you done to show him that you are going to control your own actions and reactions. Bringing him to the computer, getting his password, checking his email is still pretty controlling behaviour.
Getting caught up on your recent developments. You and H seem to be getting into a very destuctive dance here. You are playing Mommy and H is playing bad little boy crying out for attention - even if it's negative attention.
YOU have to break the cycle, since it doesn't appear that H can, or if he even wants to stop. You have to establish your boundaries and tell H in no uncertain terms that you are NOT his mother and you don't want to be his mother - you want to be his partner/lover/spouse. Tell him that being his mother and watching out for him is not the job you signed up for. Explain to H that only HE is responsible for his actions. That he needs to take on that responsibility. If he doesn't feel that he can - then he needs to talk to someone (ie. therapist) who can help him face reality and strap it onto his own back - not yours.
This could trigger another panic reaction so be prepared for all kinds of recriminations. Assure H that you do love him and care for him, but that you will not be his mother. This will mean giving up a certain controlling aspect on your part as well - something Floyd touched on earlier.
Your H allowing you to be his mother is very destructive to your R - I was there once myself. I allowed W to take control of things that I didn't want to deal with anymore. I didn't push it to the point of destructive behavior - just complacency - "oh, W will take care of it..." I had to take a long hard look at how low my self esteem was before I realized what I had done. The behavior was also bad for W, it created resentment and taking over of responsibilites that she should not have had to take on. I now own that responsibility. And even if it is 'too little, too late' in the case of my M - I will be better in the long run. Lesson learned, mistake will not be repeated. I am now in charge and take ownership of my decisions - good or bad. H needs to learn the same lesson, and may need professional help to learn it. You, for your part need to let him learn it for himself.
I too feel uncomfortable in this role of "Mother" or "Parole officer" that H has basically foisted on me.
If you recall, I insisted on him NOT passwording our entire computer (8 days ago...seems sooo much longer), because I DID NOT want "trust" based on restricting his activities. I wrote him a detailed letter to that effect.
I see exactly what you are all writing about. First, DarkBlue, the changes I have made in my behaviour are pretty profound.
You see, I was never a "checker", never questioned his travel, work hours, on-line time. I was a very naive and trusting person. I thought we were very open with each other.
As for the sarcasm and anger etc. that has dropped greatly (according to H on a few occasions, it's dropped 100%!). I really don't feel those urges the way I used to any more. And when I do, I can pause and realize that I'm slipping (this is rare).
As for the controllingness....I guess it used to be an issue with things like: how things were cleaned, where we went, not letting him have a proper say when arguing, turning arguments back around onto him if he grew angry (which was rare). That kind of thing.
I've made great strides in these areas. I think H might attest to that too.
So these recent events are rather odd. I think what you say is right (Sage, Floyd, everyone) in that on some level H WANTS me to check on him, that he has placed that burden on my shoulders.
And you know what? I DON"T WANT IT.
I think I'm going to print out some of this thread to help me organize my thoughts and perhaps write a letter or speak directly to H about this issue.
You're right, HE has to take responsibility for his own actions.
I have nothing to add to what everyone has been saying. I think you have taken the not-so-subtle hint from the others. Only you can change these destructive behaviors the two of you have gotten into. I hope H is as receptive to all this info as you have been.
Anyway, my prayers are with you. Big hugs,
Erin
"A life spent making mistakes is not only more honorable, but more useful than a life spent doing nothing."
-George Bernard Shaw
I used your wonderful insights and advice to draft a short letter to H, outlining my concerns.
Here it is:
Dear H,
I’m writing this down to keep my thoughts organized and ensure that it comes out right.
I feel pretty badly about the events of the past week. Can it possibly be only a week since OW called again??? I feel like I’ve aged a year.
I know you expected me to “freak out” and possibly end our marriage over the revelation your ongoing contact with her and all the details she sent to me. But I didn’t did I? I sat down and asked you to explain.
Although some of what you told her in your e-mails is very painful, I believe that you were acting out of fear.
We weathered that day very well, I think. I felt much relieved and you did too.
Then as is to be expected, I had some down moments and had to absorb the fact that you’d been lying to me again, black-mail or no.
I’m frankly a little disturbed that you’ve implied that my giving you space, not questioning you, not demanding answers (all part of the controllingness you couldn’t stand in me?) “enabled” you to continue the affair. That you would have ended it much sooner if I’d pushed you for answers.
Is it really fair to blame me in this way? Wasn’t the responsibility to end it (if that’s what you wanted) and face the consequences YOURS?
You told me to be more suspicious, to act on my gut feelings, which is why I asked if you’d checked your e-mail yesterday. I didn’t ask for the password until you shrugged off checking it together.
And then when “C's” personal e-mail popped up, rather than just saying who she was (and really, it’s not much to hide, is it??) you lied and panicked again.
So you want me to question you, check up on you, follow my gut, but when I do you panic and lie. What am I supposed to do???
And now, here I am, in the unwelcome position of being your “mother” or “parole officer”. I don’t want it!
I don’t want to be your boss, your mother, your jailor. I want to be your friend, lover, spouse, life partner. How do we stop this destructive cycle? Nip it in the bud?
Like I told you last week about passwording the whole computer, I don’t want “trust” built on restricting your activities, or “checking up” on you. Does it feel like a healthy pattern to you?
I have not changed your hotmail password. I will no longer look at it. If you wish to change the password on it, please do so. Same for your work e-mail, I really wish you hadn’t shouted out the password (Had I asked for it? Voiced any suspicions about it? No. I didn’t have any). Feel free to change it.
Is it that you feel you don’t deserve any privacy now? I don’t feel this way. I don’t want you to feel all exposed, powerless, wondering what I’m checking on.
If you want to disconnect that hotmail account, then do so. If you want to keep it, do so, change the password. I WILL NOT take responsibility for “keeping you on the straight and narrow”, I love you dearly, but that is YOUR job.
I really think that you could use an independent, objective ear in all of this. Another counsellor perhaps with whom you can discuss and work on some issues.
For example your long-standing tendency to behave out of fear. Isn’t it stunning how your feelings and thoughts trudging to the bank to transfer that money to OW were almost exactly how you felt hiding in the closet at K’s apartment 13 years ago?
Could you perhaps use some help in turning around your pattern of “just hoping things will go away” or resolve themselves without you having to stand up, take risks and DO something about them?
After all, this was your stance (or so you said) about the problems in our marriage too. Did this play a role in your staying in a job you hated for all these years as well?
Just know that I love you, but I’m very confused right now too, I just hope we can move past this impasse and into a healthier relationship.
but when I look inside myself and remember that he is acting out of fear, I feel sad for him instead...
