Sorry, Lil. didn't mean for it to come out that way. But, you know...me being at Cori's mercy and all, I get all flabberghasted and stuff comes out wrong. I think it is a perfectly fine bit of wisdom, and I was simply trying to point out that these 2 examples were simply "chiles".
I get that from you having said, numerous times, that your sex life and the quality of your sex life, is the responsibility of Mrs. Cac. I've never seen you own up to your half of it. That doesn't mean you haven't... I just haven't seen it. If you have... my apologies to you. Oh. I thought I had. Yes, I am a very unattractive person. I get that. I don't get what that has to do with any "fear of claiming who I am, and being that". or that there even is any such a fear.
...And if that doesn't work, find another way. Do something else. But don't sit there and tell me you are at someone else's mercy. Bullpucky. YOU are the one saying that I'm at someone's mercy. I never said that. I simply described 2 nearly identical examples of technical problems that are beyond my personal skill set, and will therefore require the consultation of a specialist to solve. You do not come off as a man who is happy. You seem really pissed off, actually.... about lots and lots and lots of things.
And the general reason you give for that, to me, seems to be you always feel like you are at the mercy of someone or something else. who would be here if they were "happy"? this is a place for griping about bad stuff. so certainly, things are going to seem overwhelmingly "negative". For me personally, I vent frustration...I dont get terribly frustrated unless I have a problem that is either really hard to solve, or just plain unsolveable. And yes, there ARE such things that are just plain unsolveable, by anyone, and I believe such things are at the root of my unattractiveness. very, very frustrating.
You might find this article interesting:
Why Men Don't Talk About Their Jobs
yeah. It would be better titled, "Why some Women Think Men don't talk about their jobs". The conclusions are all based on innacurate assertions. Sure, it would be nice if it were that simple. But the reality is that when men talk about that "stuff", the typical response is something along the lines of, "gee, it must suck to be such a victim, and be at other people's mercy all the time"... and then the men say, "ya know what? fu, I don't want to play this game anymore". and THEN they feel much better.
Corri: I get that from you having said, numerous times, that your sex life and the quality of your sex life, is the responsibility of Mrs. Cac. I've never seen you own up to your half of it. That doesn't mean you haven't... I just haven't seen it. If you have... my apologies to you.
cac: Oh. I thought I had. Yes, I am a very unattractive person. I get that.
Could you please be specific as to what qualities make you a very unattractive person? I think I know what you are referring to, but I don't want to put words in your mouth. I would like to hear it directly from you so there is no misunderstanding or miscommunication.
And then I'd like to know exactly how this unattractiveness of yours is responsible for your half of our sex life problems, in your opinion. Is this unattractiveness affecting your behavior, or my behavior, or both?
And because I know how much you abhor sugar-coating, I will be blunt. You do have unattractive qualities. But, not in the way that you may think. I'll tell you what I find unattractive if you want to hear it.
BTW, If you don't want to respond here, that's fine. But I would appreciate an answer to my questions in whatever way is most comfortable for you. Either way, we need to have a discussion about this.
I'm having a lot of thoughts and feelings stirring in me as I've followed this thread the last couple of days. *sigh* Honestly I'm feeling very frustrated and very sad after reading many of your responses. I can see exactly what's going on here! I see it! And it drives me crazy because there isn't a whole lot I can do about it. I just have to sit and watch it all unfold. And it's really hard. Really hard to watch.
It's true that if I'm not b!tchin' it doesn't mean that all this stuff has magically disappeared under the rug. These feelings are always there, just under the surface. I've gotten better at pressing on, living my life, shaking things off when I need to. But they are there. They're always there.
And yes, there ARE such things that are just plain unsolveable, by anyone, and I believe such things are at the root of my unattractiveness.
You agree? But you just told me that you would have seen a girl who had sex with you quickly as loose "back in the dating days". Now you agree it means nothing. Does that mean you've matured?
Huh? I am agreeing with your statement:
Not that I disagree that a sizable majority of men function just as you describe, but this whole "play hard to get so he won't think you're loose" thing makes both me and my cat want to scratch. All it really says is "I'm willing to play games to conform to a certain standard you have in your head that means nothing with regards to the way I'll act after we're married"….
But regardless of this, it doesn’t change how I feel about a woman who I see as too “easy.”
There will be men who will be mature enough to deal with both the fact that she likes sex and that, in a committed relationship, she won't seek it elsewhere.
Yep. And there will be men who are not mature enough to think that. Maybe I am one of them. I’m willing to bet there are a lot of guys out there like me.
Lil said:
I think Mojo said NG gave off an "ambivalence about LTR" vibe.
The question that comes to my mind is why did NG give off this vibe (assuming he meant to do so)? Was it because he does not want to get serious with anyone, that he has some kind of commitment issue? Or maybe he likes dating white women but knows his mom will scream if he brings one home? Or maybe something else about Mojo prompts him to put out that vibe?
I don’t know what it is, nor do I care. But as differentiated as Mojo is trying to be, I think she still ties her self image too closely to how well a man responds to her sexually. If she does this, then running into one (or several) of those “immature men” will only hurt her more.
As for Nop’s suggestion that she find a “reformed player,” well, frankly I don’t know what to make of that. Best I can tell, a “reformed player” is really the “infidel” of today, sleeping with lots of women, having free sex, possibly cheating on his girlfriend/wife, only having done so in the past. So if you are cheating today, you are an infidel. If you cheated in the past, you are a “reformed player?” If such a person can’t be trusted while in infidel mode, why would you want to risk that such a person is “reformed?” Maybe its just my misunderstanding of the semantics.
I think you said exactly what needed to be said. CAC's comment about feeling unattractive really says it all. I hope he can see how lucky he is to have a wife who loves him far beyond any "flaws" he may hold against himself.
Mojo, where are you?? I want to see what your response to Cobra will be!!
LOL- I'm trying to get some work done. This is my busy season. AAUW sales up the wazoo.
I think Cobra is right and wrong. In the example he gave of interacting with an easily sexually aroused young woman he's not considering the extent to which he is falling victim to his own chemicals in his urge to "dump" her and he's lacking awareness about what might motivate a woman to behave in that manner. Also, I wonder why Cobra sees himself as off to the side with a stopwatch observing the woman's sexual behavior/reaction rather than fully participating as a sexual being himself.
If I just wanted to be mean, I would simply point out that I fully understand that Cobra doesn't respect women who are highly sexual in their behavior and I'm equally certain that MrsCobra fully understands this fact about him too. The mating dance and all its intricacies doesn't stop at the altar. If I was married to Cobra and I wanted respect from him more than anything else I would behave like MrsCobra.
I think SG did an excellent job of answering some of the points for me. It's true that NG is someone who pretty clearly was a "former player" or at least a serious "scenester". The nature of his semi-fame is/was such that he still has HD teenage girl fans (Which is why it was so validating for me that he indicated that I was great in bed - lol. Also why it is highly doubtful that he thinks I'm a "slut". ) However, he is also a mature middle-aged man who doesn't drink to excess or do drugs, responsible father of two children, homeowner etc etc. I think he is someone who would like to integrate these aspects of his identity and that is why he could have been a pretty good match for me.
Anyway, I'm not sure exactly what Cobra means when he says that he wouldn't "respect" a woman who behaved like me but my definition of the word would cause me to doubt that a man who didn't "respect" me would have sent me a long e-mail yesterday discussing topics such as "what his son is reading" and making thoughtful inquiries about my business and maternal activities.
However, there are a couple ways in which I think Cobra is "right". Firstly, only a HD girl with an IQ of 60 raised in a desolate cave wouldn't know by age 12 that "boys will think you're slutty if you put out"- duh. So, why does a HD girl "put out". Well, sometimes she doesn't. My HD sister and I were discussing this and she said that in high school she drew the line at "almost sex" a lot because she "wanted a boyfriend." By the time she was in college her attitude had changed. She is HD, beautiful but very shy so her method for "getting men" in her 20s was to get drunk and then directly hit on whoever she currently liked. She says that about 1/3 of the time she ended up with a one night stand, 1/3 of the time she got a f*ck buddy and 1/3 of the time she got a semi-LTR or boyfriend. She was quite commitment phobic so usually she was the one to eventually dump the LTR/BFs she "got" with her "method."
Corri weirded me out a while back because she posted something to the effect of "You are so far beyond being the kind of woman who has sex to "get" men". My thought was that only a formerly LD woman would have that thought. I've never had sex to "get" men. I'm not an idiot. If I choose to behave somewhat promiscuously it's because I don't particularly give a f*ck about whether I "get" a man, I'd rather just get laid. Partly this is due to a rebellious streak but partly I have had pure motivations for this kind of behavior. I remember my mother once offered up to me the wonderful homily "A man won't buy a cow if he can get the milk for free." and my response was "Well, luckily for me I'm not a whore who is up for sale like a cow." So, my lack of desire to behave in a manner that would "get" me a man was part "don't fence me in" and part "I can make my own money and take care of myself so I don't need to auction myself off like a cow/whore withholding sex until the bidding gets high enough" and part "I give of my sexuality freely where my desire or feelings of love or generosity lead". Anyway, my experience of the "results" of this kind of behavior wasn't too far different than my sister's (although I didn't use the same "method" to signal availability. I don't drink or directly approach men. I usually just dressed really sexy and smiled). By offering "free love" or just behaving somewhat heedlessly in terms of honestly signaling availability while in the company of a male to whom I was strongly attracted for the usual physical/lifestyle-signal reasons, I ended up with a BF/semi-LTR about 1/3 of the time but my intention was always just to get laid. If I had wanted to take deliberate action to "get" a boyfriend, I wouldn't have "put out" so easily.
Anyways, maturity and loss of ignorance has changed my view on the matter. I used to think it was "good" to give "free love" but now I see that it might be better to behave differently, not because I'm terribly concerned about the kind of men I'd want to date thinking I'm a slut but rather because I'm inadvertently or actually signaling that I don't give a f*ck about forming a relationship with someone when I behave in that manner. I'm not at all offended that someone might want to use me as a fun sex toy but that doesn't mean that I should heedlessly go around using men as fun sex toys even if the cultural stereotype tells me that they don't care and even if it is the case that their own chemicals will tell them that they don't care if I behave like that. It's more difficult for men to form relationships when women offer sex too freely because it inhibits the build-up of vasopressin and limits their ability to bond. It increases their tendency to land on the polygamous rather than the monogamous side of human sexuality. Of course, the brutal work-around to this is for a woman to behave in a manner that will provoke jealousy of other men but I'm not willing to go there except at a very playful level. In conclusion, I've never had and never will have the desire to be a "nice girl" but I do want to be a "good" person and I've never had and never will have the desire to "get" a man but I do want to act in a thoughtful manner when considering how I might successfully form a relationship that would hopefully benefit both parties so I am willing to consider how I might change my sexual behavior as warranted with these values in mind.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Not that I disagree that a sizable majority of men function just as you describe, but this whole "play hard to get so he won't think you're loose" thing makes both me and my cat want to scratch. All it really says is "I'm willing to play games to conform to a certain standard you have in your head that means nothing with regards to the way I'll act after we're married"….
Ah. You were agreeing with a passage, but not with the spirit of my argument. I understand.
Quote:
But regardless of this, it doesn’t change how I feel about a woman who I see as too “easy.”
There will be men who will be mature enough to deal with both the fact that she likes sex and that, in a committed relationship, she won't seek it elsewhere.
Yep. And there will be men who are not mature enough to think that. Maybe I am one of them. I’m willing to bet there are a lot of guys out there like me.
Yes, I'm sure there are. I just find it rather tiring to hear from someone that they understand it's a game and nothing but a game; but need to see you play it in order to feel "respect", in other words, safe.
A script written into our reptile brains. My cat dislikes scripts. And reptiles are born to be swatted. *stretches, and yawns*
Quote:
As for Nop’s suggestion that she find a “reformed player,” well, frankly I don’t know what to make of that. Best I can tell, a “reformed player” is really the “infidel” of today, sleeping with lots of women, having free sex, possibly cheating on his girlfriend/wife, only having done so in the past. So if you are cheating today, you are an infidel. If you cheated in the past, you are a “reformed player?” If such a person can’t be trusted while in infidel mode, why would you want to risk that such a person is “reformed?” Maybe its just my misunderstanding of the semantics.
I was thinking more in terms of serial monogamist, or rather one who dated many people but refused/was unable to make long-term commitments, but was tired of "playing" and wanted to make them now. Sort of a blackfoot by inclination and not by trauma.
Here's what I really want to say to you. A very small percentage of women are actually nymphomaniacs who will just randomly have sex with anyone. Unfortunately, there are quite a few women HD and LD who will have sex with men they might not otherwise when they are drunk or otherwise wasted. Obviously, some women will have sex in exchange for money or the like. However, the thing that is true if you are a reasonably attractive, HD woman in touch with her sexuality and not currently suffering from low self-esteem is not that you WILL have sex with anyone because you're desperate for sex but rather that you CAN have sex with just about anyone so you will usually choose or signal to the best man available or the one on whom you have a bit of a crush. So, if it ever again happens to you that a woman behaves like that in your presence you should take it as a compliment because it probably means that she likes you and/or thinks that you're sexy, maybe so much that she doesn't bother to worry about whether you'll respect her in the morning. (I know that you might be different in real life but based on your BB persona, I would guess that in your case it would probably be that she thinks that you are sexy (rather than likable) because you give off the vibe that you might bite.)
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
