why don't I listen to my own stories?

[NikB]

I am second guessing my decision to see my H. He goes in waves of obviously being happy to be with me, to being more like the "old" him that is just going thru the motions. Why would he come home if he gets to be have both worlds? Worse, what if he only comes home because he hates living in an apartment.

This is why mine says he came home... hated where he was living.

If he does go this direction, MAKE SURE you know his intentions before he comes home, if he wants to. In fact I'd recommend some MC sessions first with someone who can make sure of his real motivations (and if he won't go, no moving home). Maybe make that, or Retrovaille (sp?), or something like that part of the agreement.

But remember you're not there yet.. don't start expecting, pressuring, etc. or you'll push him away more.

My client/friend invited me/us to go to China this coming spring and when I told him about it, he was very ho hum. non-committal. (Goes along with him not knowing how he is going to feel.)

This is an incredible amount of pressure to put on him. At most I would have mentioned the invite and how excited you were - NOT invite him to go. If he asked if he was invited you could have said yes, if not, just be excited to go yourself.

I have been talking about Costa Rica for YEARS. I haven't gone on a real vacation (more than 3 or 4 days) for YEARS. His parents are talking about taking a trip over Christmas to Costa Rica and had invited us to go along. (Knowing that we were selling our first house and would have proceeds from the sale.)(Of course, I was only invited originally because I'm his wife. Now that he moved out, I am not invited anymore.) The tour company sent us a brochure and we were looking thru it and I told him that I will be REALLY upset if he goes without me because that is something I wanted to experience WITH him and I have talked about it for so long. He did not seem upset or annoyed that I was saying this, so I sure hope he takes it to heart.

More pressure, more expectations.

I KNOW how hard this is but you really need to back off. If you don't give him enough space he will either come back for the wrong reasons and resent you, or he'll take the space he needs by making himself dislike you, push you away.

If he's truly separated from you, he doesn't have to plan his trips around your feelings or wishes. If you are D'd, he can go wherever he wants regardless of your feelings on it (if he even bothers to tell you). I guess I'm saying... don't make him D you to get the space that he needs.

((Agent99))

This is hard, I know.

[Trixi]

(hanging head)
yeah.

Remember the class I mentioned that was about Mastering the Laws of the Universe and that it was about finding peace in the 'now'?
I went for a private session with this guy today. Long story short- says that H is in his "ego/mind" and will continue to do the push me/pull me for as long as I allow it. Basically said things along the lines of GAL. That I need to cut H off sexually (for now) so that we can connect on a different level and if H says "forget it", then he would have left at some point anyway.
He also said that I deserve to be loved for who I am. period. That as long as I try to prove myself (ala Plan A) or reinvent myself to keep things "new" and "fresh", I will always be on the hamster wheel and my H will be one step away from cheating/leaving. Plus, I will not know who I am anymore.
(All stuff that we know, right?)

I basically cried the entire time I was there. He pretty much cut to the core of things. He says that the battle for my H is between the ego/mind and the heart. And the more you live with your heart, the more the ego fears being 'lost'. Women can teach men how to open their hearts, but the men need to let loose of the ego and let it happen. That it will bring up a lot of pain from his childhood and that ideally we would walk thru this side by side. But only H can make that choice.

Gosh, I'm not saying it very well. He says it so much better. If I take away the 'spiritual' aspects and boil it down to pragmatic things-- it is very DB/Tough Love.

Now I am sorry I mentioned the trips.
I had to call him last night to tell him about our daughter. and then he called me today to see how I was and if I had spoken with her further. He plans to call her today to talk about things.

Sometimes I think I want to be tough, cut him off, tell him to Eff off. But then I think of something Morgan wrote recently when she thought she was faced with the end: "I'm not ready, I'm not ready, I'm not ready." When I read that, I TOTALLY understood how she felt.

[SallyM]

((((HUGS))))

I'm so sorry about your daughter. I can only imagine how hard that is on you, especially since she already gave up a child. my mind reels at how hard that must be, and to see your child back in the same situation, wow. on top of everything else in your life.

stay strong, agent99. keep on GAL. I think there is something to that. whether you are with H or not with H, its important to do that, and to not lose sight of who you are. don't do that for anyone...you are worth loving, just for being you. if he's going to leave/cheat, he's going to leave/cheat. nothing you do will change that.

[Trixi]

Thanks Morgan. It is very hard to see her go thru this again. And we had ALL tried to impress upon her to be SURE to use birth control and be SURE not to get pregnant. :'(

H just called to let me know how their convo went. We talked for a little bit about that and then he told me some about his class and the challenges. It was nice to just talk.

I can tell you one thing about 2007--it's been a rough year. Could be worse, though. I just found out that the escrow company down the hall is closing their doors and people have been let go; one guy has 3 kids (one that is disabled) and has no insurance. It's great that the fed dropped rate by 1/2 percent, but my lender says it's only going to be about 1/8th to the consumer. Crazy times.

[Dom R]

Sorry about the inner turmoil you are going through.
Personally, i'd say keep being nice to him.. as mentioned, it seems like your H is going through MLC-"lite", rather than the hardcore stuff that a lot of other folks seem to be dealing with, with their spouses.

on my front:

well, there's still lots to be "concerned" about... ha...

didnt take too long for proof of THAT.

I invited her to spend a little time with us yesterday, since it was "my day" for the next two days.
She made up some excuses why she "couldnt" that day.
When I mentioned that I knew today would be busy, so maybe better yesterday if she wanted to postpone her supposed "had to" chores...
She replied, with almost these exact words,
"[We're already going on a trip. I think that's enough].":

So... basically, she doesnt want to socialize and/or see our children when I have them... for the next 10 days, until the trip???

sigh.

bah.

going to see her at PTA meeting this evening. probably going to be nothing but stress. she wants to be in charge of everything school related. because she's their mother, AND she's a teacher.
Doesnt mean I dont care about it too, though!

As I've said before... YOU.. are very lucky.

At least your husband wants to spend time with you consistantly, and enjoys it.

[NikB]

((((Agent99))))

To use a cliche... when it rains it pours, huh? I'm so sorry about your daughter! I wonder if she'd be better off with that new Mirena IUD (the one that's an IUD plus hormones). I read somewhere that statistically it's actually slightly MORE effective than sterilization. Too late now but.. just thinking in future, if maybe her body's not processing the BC pills in a way that they work for her.

Wow, the guy you had the session with sounds excellent.

He also said that I deserve to be loved for who I am. period. That as long as I try to prove myself (ala Plan A) or reinvent myself to keep things "new" and "fresh", I will always be on the hamster wheel and my H will be one step away from cheating/leaving. Plus, I will not know who I am anymore.

Powerful stuff, there.

I do think there's something to be said for keeping things new and fresh though. It's easy to get stuck in a rut. Not saying do something that isn't "you" - but try something new and different that's something YOU want for yourself.

Sometimes I think I want to be tough, cut him off, tell him to Eff off.

I hope you don't see that as what DB tells you to do, or what we're all telling you to do. That's not it at all (at least, not from me!). I suggest re-reading the DR chapters about detaching, and going through this site:
http://www.coping.org/control/detach.htm

Being angry can help you detach - but it isn't, in itself, detaching. It's still letting your H and your sitch control your emotions, just in a different way. YOU need to get back in control of you. (I know, easy to say, hard to do.. but keep working at it). Oldtimer talks a lot about healthy Ms NEEDING both spouses to remain detached - you work together as partners yes, but by choice, not unhealthy reasons (you'll see what I mean when you read the detaching page I bet).

I agree with Dom, keep being nice - I see no reason not to. It may help to think about treating him like a friendly co-worker. You get along, you chat about life, you hang out sometimes. In your case it's a bit more intimate than that in that you're also "dating" each other, but if you can get that "coworker" feel in mind when you're talking with him, that might help you distinguish when to say things and when not to. (i.e. you would never say something like that about the Costa Rica trip to a coworker).

You don't need to get mean or nasty - what you need to do is stop the pushing, pursuing, chasing, expectations, and putting your life on hold for your H.

Have you ever read Oldtimer's water cooler post? It's really helpful for 'getting' this point.
Water Cooler post

[Trixi]

Gah! I had well worded post and then my computer froze. Grr.

I saw IC today and she said something about H and his ego. (I hadn't yet told her about the 'intuitive' from yesterday.) So I told her about what the intuitive said and she was vigorously nodding her head the whole time. She said "That exactly what I was trying to figure out how to say a few minutes ago."

She had tried to get H to delve into his family of origin but H would intellectualize it. He would agree that he "should" look at that, but then wouldn't actually go deep. She believes (as does the intuitive) that he is afraid to open his heart and really deal with the family stuff. That when he starts to really feel close to me, he gets scared and his ego takes over.

I think that the "something" that is missing for my H is that he wants someone to be the bridge between his ego/psyche and his heart. Of course, only *he* can actually allow it; but I think he believes that the 'right' person would 'make' it happen.

Now that he is starting to view his parents in less favorable light and is also open to things like "the secret" this might be the best time for him to actually start to deal with the FOO stuff. The intuitive says that when we partner, ideally it is to get to a really deep love where our hearts are open and we process hurts from our childhood. That the man has to be willing to let go of his ego and let the woman help him open his heart. And then they can walk side by side.

I think that now is the time for me to deal with my father issues (my father would say he was coming to get me and never show up, that sort of thing). According to the intuitive, we all come here and find "study partners" to help up us go thru certain lessons. H is in my life to help me heal my father issues, I am here to help him open his heart and deal with his issues. This video (even though it starts out corny) click here for video makes me bawl my eyes out. I see it and just long for that kind of love and protection. I never got it from my dad. Not even close. (FYI- I do NOT see my H as a father figure. I do wish that he would 'protect' me and cherish me, but I see my H as my best friend and partner.)

If H himself can see that he is being a cake eater and that some women would tell him to take a hike until he got his sht together, aren't I disrespecting myself by allowing him in my life; having sex with him?
OTOH, if I was 'seriously' dating a man and wanted to live with him, be married to him , I would probably be having sex with him, so why would I deny someone that is actually my H?

[Trixi]

Damn. That water cooler post is VERY good. OT sure knows how to say it.

[NikB]

That she does, Agent99!

[Dom R]

if I was 'seriously' dating a man and wanted to live with him, be married to him , I would probably be having sex with him, so why would I deny someone that is actually my H?

Yup. that's my perspective on it for you too.
ALthough with that, should go the matching limits about, at what point with "someone you were dating", would you STOP having sex with him?

I dont think you're at that point yet. but it bears saying.