I was just caught up and was about to post a lengthy reply when I just read your & your W's email. After reading that, I'm confident the two of you will work your way through this. Then lay back some and monitor. I think you see some changes in the right direction. She will bring up some suggestions in things you might want to do differently. If they seem the right thing to do, then implement them. This what the DBing process transforms into when the R becomes a healthy one and being nutured to stay healthy.
Speaking of continuing the DBing process and how it relates to the underlying theme here, is each partner has to remember it is first and foremost to be reponsible for our own PMA and not rely on our partner to maintain our PMA. (and oh this a tough one, one I'm still need to get better at.) We don't want to lose ourselves in the effort to make an us.
When her PMA takes a nose drive, I understand totally about how that effects you!, but it is very important just like before to back off. When she still has her problems to work out, you must let her work on them herself. Back off so she doesn't feel pressured, then she will not associate R as being part of her problems.
Remember, backing off only means you are respecting her space to work through her issues her way. So don't take it personally. This will help diffuse the impact her negativatey will have on you. When you give her space, make sure you are taking the time to do what you enjoy. Take your mind of W for a while. Its OK not to have her on your mind 24/7. At this point, we tend to feel guilty, if we aren't constantly thinking about M or worry that we are falling back to old patterns and this wears on us and we become so tired, but it not healthy for us, them or our M to constantly concentrate on them. We need to find the balance between doing for us and doing for them.
The both of you are soley responsible for your own PMA's and when you can bring that to the party (M), then a good time can be had by all.
But by "backing off", doesn't mean you can't talk about it. As you will discover with your email, you will need to put feelers out there to assess where our partners are so we don't superimpose our thoughts to their actions and allow us to do whats needed without us getting resentful or frustrated.
Well, I ended getting long winded anyway, but wanted to chime in to say, Jethro, you're transending the "natural" progress of turning your M into a healthy one. There will be bumps along the way, but they are all inclusive in the path that brings yourself closer to what you want.
P.S. From your W's email, I sense she has a very good grasp on what works to get to a healthy M and is very committed to getting there ... it is a matter of finding the balance.
Jethro...the response back from your w sounded positive..you are trying too hard..I know the feeling of thinking you have to be there all the time..that contributed to my h leaving..no space apart..alone. take her cue's and go with the flow..You are strong..and I think your w wants your m to work.
Hey Jim, KAW, and Sue. Thanks for coming by. I'm feeling a bit more mellow now, thank goodness. I'm just tired of all this stuff. It's been going on for a long time...well a year and a half seems like a long time to me.
Quoting Jim:A lot of people around here say not to get caught up in our Ses moods. Seems like perhaps that's what you're doing.
You summed it up ever so nicely, Jim. That's exactly what it is. Thing is, I've been dealing with these moods for a while now and I'm just tired of the whole mess...
Quoting KAW:Speaking of continuing the DBing process and how it relates to the underlying theme here, is each partner has to remember it is first and foremost to be reponsible for our own PMA and not rely on our partner to maintain our PMA.
KAW, it's less me feeling as though my PMA is her responsibility as it is having to deal with the mood swings. I feel like I'm on guard all of the time.
Quoting KAW:Take your mind of W for a while. Its OK not to have her on your mind 24/7. At this point, we tend to feel guilty, if we aren't constantly thinking about M or worry that we are falling back to old patterns and this wears on us and we become so tired, but it not healthy for us, them or our M to constantly concentrate on them. We need to find the balance between doing for us and doing for them.
The both of you are soley responsible for your own PMA's and when you can bring that to the party (M), then a good time can be had by all.
This really is the most important thing, KAW. I just have to back off a bit and enjoy those things for myself. You know, it's easier when one's W is a WA because you don't have to be worried about making sure you spend time with them in a meaningful manner because they don't even want to. We can pretty much do what we want. It becomes the biggest challenge when trying to put it all together again. It's all about balance, huh?
Sue, you're right...need to go with the flow a bit more rather than making things seem more "forced."
So, I talked with my W last night a little more about how I was feeling. She was pretty good, but I do think her interpretations are skewed by her own projected feelings/insecurities, so it required me to clarify a few things. Most pointed thing she said last night was that she always felt like she held my heart in her hand (her words). I had her clarify her statement because it's one of those with hidden meaning. She basically said that she has always felt responsible for my happiness. My response was that as my W, she is responsible for certain things, but my happiness is something I'm responsible for. She was cool with that.
Also, she told me she felt like I never wanted her going out or over to her friends and such. Well, you guys know I don't care for this (primarily the bar thing) but I'm basing my feelings on past indescretions and not the current nature of our R. I told her that every time she asked, even though it was perfectly legitimate to ask to go out, I got a "twinge," as I'm reminded of the painful past. Her response was that my twinges make her feel like I'm tugging at her. I said (a bit forcefully), "Tough sh!t. You were the one that had an A and you were the one that tried to get out of this house as often as possible and not be around. You made that bed and you'll have to deal with the consequences...one of which is that I feel that way when you ask to bail." I refuse to feel guilty about something like that. However, I made sure to let her know that although I have that "twinge" it doesn't mean I have a problem with her hanging out with her friends.
So, that was that. I overreacted a bit yesterday, but it has been building for the last week. She seemed a bit more present last night and we ended up having a good evening (after got back from going out a bit).
Thanks for everyone's support. Again, you guys rock!
Quoting jethro: KAW, it's less me feeling as though my PMA is her responsibility as it is having to deal with the mood swings. I felt like I'm on guard all of the time.
Yea, I know what you mean. I don't why we do it, but we tend to try to read our S's PMA as a barometer. When the barometer drops, we start to feel the aches and pains in our joints, knowing that rain is on its way. When the barometer, reads high, we look forward to lotsa sunshine and what a great day its gonna be. The point is despite the weather (S's PMA), its in our control to be as upbeat in the rain as it in the sunshine ...
"Just singin in the rain..." eerrr, well that's snow around here ...
I'm sorry to not have been around for a while...lotsa stuff in my sitch and I have been burned out. I feel a great amount of empathy for you.
Quote: Now, I just have to get over the A. It's easier when she's the way she is lately, but I think on it every day. I'm afraid each time I tell her I love her. Heck, I'm gun-shy. I don't want to be trampled again... Unbelievable. I fight hard to get the R I want and now I'm "hesitant." This sh!t is hard...but not as hard as it was only a few months ago.
Ups and down, up and down...how can you not be afraid and hesitant? You have been betrayed! By the one who vowed never to betray you! Getting "over" the A will not happen overnight, I am learning. Especially when everything reminds you of the deceit, and lies, and betrayal.
Then, the waw becomes involved in working on the M and now that there seems to be honest and open lines of communication, you want to let em have it! Darn right! It's easy to feel that way when you have all of this anger built up. But you never just let em have it...no, it trickles out. A comment here, a joke there, each intended as a slight.
But then you wonder, "Did I just go too far? Did I just say the thing that is going to push her away?" You feel like you are walking a tightrope made of eggshells. I can't explain why we (or at least, I) act this way. We are angry and I feel that our Ws need to help us with this anger. And when I figure out how they can do this, I'll let you know, then write a book! Right now, I'll settle for what I have: she wants to save the marriage and she loves me. I'll build from there (if I'm not in jail - see my sitch).
I guess the thing to realize is exactly what you said, "This sh!t is hard." But we wouldn't be going through it if we didn't think it is worth it. I dearly love my W an I know you dearly love yours, and in a nutshell, that is why we are here.
I think at this point, and I agree with everyone here, "piecing" is a difficult place to be. But, at least we are here and more importantly, our Ss are listening.
You guys are so cool! Thanks for the input KAW, SB, SBH, and Robin. I was a bundle of nerves the entire weekend.
So, Robin, our anniversary was very nice. We went to a comedy club, had some laughs, then went Karaoke-ing, and off to get a burger at 1:30 in the morning! Really, it was great, except at the beginning of evening when I was reminded that last year (our milestone 10th anniversary), my W was in the middle of her A. Couldn't quite get that out of my head, voiced it, and my W's response was, "could you put on a happy face for the rest of the evening?" She said it nicely, and I complied (thankfully).
So, on Saturday I was reminded of something my W said during the 2nd bomb (before I knew about the A). She said, "I don't feel passion for you...never really did." Well, naturally that hurt at the time (still does). My response was, "Maybe you'd feel that way with anyone...because you've, in effect, turned off your feelings." Her response was, "I KNOW that's not the case." Well, duh, what a red flag for me at the time, but I didn't really clue in...
All weekend I was thinking about this conversation and how utterly horrible it was. It really got me down. I was moping about all weekend (not good). My mind began wandering to things like: - "Why should I even try to work things out?" - "I've given so much to this R over the years and have received next to nothing." - "How can I ever trust her again?" - "Why should I trust her again?"
My W pretty much left me alone for the weekend, which was probably good. But I did tell her that sometimes I don't even feel like working things out. And I don't. Over the weekend I felt pretty belligerent about the whole thing, but didn't say too much, as I know better (even though a little slipped out).
She kept saying, "We have to move past this. We're on the right path." Blah...blah...blah... Thing is, this R is not what I want. I want her to love me, damn it, and act like she loves me. Yes, she is doing more for me these days, and for that I'm thankful. Problem is, there's little conviction in what she does (except for that one week a few weeks ago that was amazing). It's a little better than her just going through the motions, but it's not where it needs to be. It's not where it needs to be for me. I'm getting impatient and not sure how long I want to drag this out.
So, why is this? Why am I feeling this way? Is it unreasonable? Am I being too impatient? My thoughts are gravitating to what it would be like to have a real R with someone who really seems to like me. Hell, I'm not a bad catch--I'm fit/athletic, not bad looking, a good dad, play guitar, woodwork, cook, have a decent job that pays well, do stuff around the house...
You know, I think it would be nice to just be loved. I'm not asking for falling on the knees love, for crying out loud, just something with conviction. I have wanted this for many years and my faithfulness gets paid by her unfaithfulness. Hell, when it comes down to it, I should have been the WA!
Ugh...to go down this road is not healthy, but I can't help it. Do I just need to suck it up? Guys?
Quoting jethro: She kept saying, "We have to move past this. We're on the right path." Blah...blah...blah... Thing is, this R is not what I want. I want her to love me, damn it, and act like she loves me. Yes, she is doing more for me these days, and for that I'm thankful. Problem is, there's little conviction in what she does (except for that one week a few weeks ago that was amazing). It's a little better than her just going through the motions, but it's not where it needs to be. It's not where it needs to be for me. I'm getting impatient and not sure how long I want to drag this out.
So, why is this? Why am I feeling this way? Is it unreasonable? Am I being too impatient? My thoughts are gravitating to what it would be like to have a real R with someone who really seems to like me. Hell, I'm not a bad catch--I'm fit/athletic, not bad looking, a good dad, play guitar, woodwork, cook, have a decent job that pays well, do stuff around the house...
You know, I think it would be nice to just be loved. I'm not asking for falling on the knees love, for crying out loud, just something with conviction. I have wanted this for many years and my faithfulness gets paid by her unfaithfulness. Hell, when it comes down to it, I should have been the WA!
jethro --
Sorry if I've missed the crux of this in your past posts...but what happens when you tell your wife that this R isn't one that you want long term? In other words, it sounds from W's response to you (we need to work past this, etc) that she is committed to staying IN the M. What's her response to the idea that being committed isn't enough? That there's work to be done to bring it to the level that's satisfactory for you, too?
I'll probably post this on my own thread but I know for myself that I've been stymied by the act of "DB'ing" to make things "better" as opposed to "DB'ing" to keep the WA from going -- in other words, I did OK getting out of crisis mode (tho' I actually feel back in it, but that's a different story) but not so great about maintaining progress using DB'ing. Why am I waxing on about this? Because I'm wondering if the same techniques can't be applied in your M. to get you both over this plateau.
Sage
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
Thanks for the input KAW, SB, SBH, and Robin. I was a bundle of nerves the entire weekend.