Asking for help...not an easy thing for me

[Meredith]

I can see your point, there. So maybe #3 goes back burner for now.

But... Just to play devil's advocate (my favorite game!) let's assume that you did say those things and he responded as you said he would.

Right now stating how I feel is not a good thing to do.
Unless, of course, I am feeling happy. Or sexy. Or horny.

Well, you have to start somewhere and it may as well be there!

Expressing anger brings more anger back at me.

Expressing anger, correctly, might bring more back to you but it's a lot better than keeping it bottled up. The key word is, correctly. Hint, "you crazy sonofablank, how can you just walk out of this house without xyz and expect me not to run your sorry carcass over with a bus!?!?" is not very productive. HOWEVER, saying "that makes me angry because ___" in a calm manner might bring about something - even if it isn't immediate.

Expressing that I feel belittled brings even more. Do I not know how belittled he felt for many years???? (him speaking)

Fair question that deserves a fair answer. "Yes, I do. If I could change that I would but I can only go forward". For flair you might want to add that you were not a stupid kindergartener either, so there.

Expressing confusion brings yet more anger. "You are a smart girl, Pamela. Why do you act so stupid when it comes to this?"

I don't have to be Freud to guess that he would be giving you a non-answer there because he simply doesn't have a real one. But, since he probably care about as much about Freud as I do football you could answer the question anyway. "I apologize for frustrating you, but I'm trying to understand this and would appreciate it if you would explain further." Hell, he might say no but at least he would know that he had confused you.


Disclaimer: The author does not guarantee results, but was simply playing a little fun game of what-if to get Pam thinking.

PS: I absolutely loved our therapist. She's very Christian which made H a whole lot of uncomfortable. But once he got past the praying parts he really took what she had to say to heart. Do you think your H is ready to try therapy again? Now, I don't know where she's working as her office building caught fire, but her office was where your H's office moved to (if I am remembering correctly on where your H's office moved to).

[CMNM]

Hey Mer. You really immersed yourself right into this updated technology, eh? Look at you, doing the quote thingy!

Other than to nod yes, yes, yes...I got nothin' left to add to what you said. Thank you for the reminder on how to talk nice, but don't you remember that CMNM stands for "CrazyMaker no more?" I, too, am vegetarian! Therein lies a lot of my recent confusion. I thought that since I stopped making crazy that I had fixed my end of the communication problem, so I was puzzled at why it continued on. I didn't realize that I only took away the most obvious portion of the problem and that there were still so many layers to go.

Your T....City that starts with an S?
(Sorry other readers for this stuff. I just don't wanna give out too many specifics. I mean, if you care enough, I'll do it via e-mail- but I doubt that is really an issue.)

I did call and leave a message for H as I left the gym today. I said that I was thinking of taking S#2 out for lunch, and that if he is in town perhaps we could meet up so he could visit as well. He texted back that he was in a meeting (I guess to explain why he couldn't call back) and that he was too far away to do lunch. He thanked me for the invite.

See? I am a good girl with good intentions. I f it up a lot, but I do mean well. And, the beauty of the invitation? Twofold:
a. I am not disappointed in the answer.
b. I did not ask other than with the intention of him seeing his son. Honest to God.

[Meredith]

I know, the new technology is even growing on me!

I will set up email, I PROMISE! Probably after my long list of things to do at work - even if this is more fun.

First, the T... well I was close. She's actually a city over in FH. Or, she was.

I feel like I should clarify the 'nice' comments though... I wasn't saying you weren't nice, because you are one of the nicest people I know! Instead, I was trying to point out that you could still be nice and be clear with your emotions even if they were not so nice - like anger and sadness and such. I should practice my communication too!

Okay, back to the grind since it really is a busy day...ugh.

[princess_nic]

Nic,

Thank you for sharing that. At least, though, my Kindergarten teacher is not holding a grudge for me not being smarter back then...ya know?

But if she did, what would you think of her? Would you think that was fair and feel bad about it? Or would you think she was expecting too much and needs to move on?


Edit- move on to the present I mean!

[CMNM]

Nicola,

That was brilliant!!! I am sitting here smiling because, well, because you just said something that makes a lot of sense to me. You just never know when something is going to get through, eh?

Thanks!

[slowly]

Hey Pam - I hope you understand that this exchange here on your thread is very helpful for me too. Although NG and I have a better R now than before, I'm still in the 'consciously-competent' stage of my communication style changes, and in all honesty, often question if I can keep this up.

My first reaction to this was complete paranoia! As in, "Why? Did Betsey say that about me?" Then I realized that was silly.

I'm sorry for triggering temporary paranoia The question was meant to see if this challenge you had was a reaction to H, or was more a reflection of your overall style, and NO, I don't see it as selfish at all. Just focused. You see, I have a similar problem. Comes from years of training and experience as an analyst (market analyst, not the psycho type) My skill is in sifting through a lot of info quickly and seeing the end game. Assumptions define analysts. Makes me good at my job, but lousy at relationships with the subtle/sensitive types, KWIM? Personally I've enjoyed your contribution on several threads here because you have been able to cut through a lot of posturing crwap and gotten to the heart of the matter. A woman after my own heart

Of course I want to be different. I wasn't saying, hey, I am selfish and proud of it! I don't even know that selfish is the right word in this situation. I am not trying to backtrack out of what I said, but I do need to explain that yes, I was caught up in my own pain. It wasn't that I didn't want to help my H thru his own, it was more that I didn't understand that he had his own. I was feeling like he was blaming me for all of our communication issues. That hurt.

I thought I wanted to be different too. And am slowly coming to the realisation that I actually want to be effective, and that means sometimes being the same, and sometimes adapting to a different style. Long way of saying needing to change and wanting to change may not always happen at the same time And sometimes, we should be careful not to chuck the baby out with the bathwater.

Meredith, I love the goals and how tos!

Slowly

[CMNM]

Slowly,

Thanks for joining this discussion. I have always liked the things you have had to say, too. Thanks especialy for this:

I thought I wanted to be different too. And am slowly coming to the realisation that I actually want to be effective, and that means sometimes being the same, and sometimes adapting to a different style. Long way of saying needing to change and wanting to change may not always happen at the same time And sometimes, we should be careful not to chuck the baby out with the bathwater.

Funny you should say this, because this is another place that I always seem to get stuck! I think that I have had other epiphanies before~ heck, with Bets and Mer on my side I am sure that lots of things were pointed out. Most recently, BabyBliss and Nicola have written things that have stopped me in my tracks. So, I start thinking "Change, Change, CHANGE already, Pam!"

But, as you so astutely pointed out, I don't really need to be completely different...I just need to be effective. I really don't want to lose ME in all of this. I want to lose those parts of me that don't relate to people (read "H") so well, but I think I am more like an apple that needs a little bruised part cut off... it is still an apple in the end, just a more appetizing one. That may sound silly, but for a bit there I was trying to become something totally different.

If you go back into my old posts, you will see that I had a great fear of becoming a Stepford Wife! That is a true fear of mine in all of this.

So, thank you, Slowly for bringing this up. I seem to get to this point and then give up because I feel so overwhelmed over trying to be someone totally different! I am sure my H doesn't really want that, anyway. He just wants to have trust in me and feel "safe" in talking to me. He wants me to slow down and think before I react. Those are very doable goals.

[MicheleTW]

Hey, CMNM, I followed you from Betsey's thread and have read your entire thread this morning. Wow! What wonderful advice and support you've gotten from some terrific folks.

Last week I picked up John Gottman's book The Relationship Cure for a presentation I was making on effective communication. Gottman had a simple thing which I immediately stole -- he says there are three ways to respond to another person who wants to communication with you:

- Turning Toward

- Turning Away

- Turning Against

Turning toward responses are things which say "Tell me more" like paraphrasing what they said or mirroring their tone and body language.

Turning away is responding without enthusiasm, changing the subject or disregarding the person. For instance, if I say, "I'm worried about my daughter's health. Can we talk about it?" and you respond with "Oh, I'm reading right now", that's turning away.

Turning against is answering that question with "You should be worried about her health, all you do is feed her junk food!"

Gottman says turning toward is the only way to build a relationship. Since I read this little gem of wisdom, I've taken a hard look at how I turn in conversation. In my family, the art of the funny putdown was practiced -- but that's often really Turning Against, with a joke. I'm also aware of when my kids try to talk with me but I'm typing away on the computer -- that's Turning Away.

What I want is to Turn Toward -- of course, with boundaries because always being available has its pitfalls, too. But I can Turn Toward by saying, "I can talk in about 10 minutes, is that OK?" Whoever I'm talking with can feel heard, and I can feel better about me, and feel more conscious about how I am being in the world.

If you could be conscious of how you're "turning" with your H in conversation, I'll bet you could become a better listener and a better communicator.

-- MicheleTW

[CMNM]

Michele!
Wow. I really feel blessed to have all of this support. Now if Betsey would just come on over here, all would be complete!

Thank you for this contribution. I feel as if it fits in nicely with the things that Meredith had to say. It is all sinking in.

Last night H was here. He came in to the office where I was doing some work. He thanked me for the e-mail that I sent him regarding how I shut him down or "punish" him. He assured me that he wasn't angry about it (I had thought that he might be, as he seems to get frustrated that it takes me as long as it does to finally "get" things). He then said, "I was proud of myself for replying to you."

Now, I think that normally I would not have taken that opportunity to do anything other than stay silent. Last night, however, I turned to him and asked why he was proud. He quickly summed up his end of our communication problems by explaining:

Normally I would have read what you had to say, then felt the need to think about it. Days would have gone by, and then when I had it all figured out I would feel like it was too late to bring it up again, so I wouldn't.

I smiled at him and said, "Well, then I am proud of you, too."

And, I meant it. I do not feel "too little, too late." I feel good that we can still work on this. We will be in each other's lives for many years to come (because of the kids), so despite the outcome of the marriage, I do want to learn to do this correctly.

So, I guess that would be a good example of a shaky start at "Turning Toward," eh? And, it may seem like the obvious answer, but I can't say the "old" me wouldn't have said something like, "See? It is not all me when it comes to our lack of communication!" Ugh. Yes, I really would have done that.

Thank you again. I am printing this out and adding it to the many things I need reminders of!

Thank you also for taking the time to read this entire thread. I hope that others are learning something from all of my mistakes!

[inmyplace]

Pam,

You said:

It is just that when we get stuck in this same bad communication cycle, I seem to spin right out of control.

That is exactly what I saw. It was the predicate for the words I was posting. If anything, I was telling you to get out of it. But it goes deeper than the communication. It does affect the way you see yourself. To be honest, I was "puzzled" buy the difference in your confidence from my thread to this thread. When you think of your H and the stuff surrounding it, as you said, you spin. All I am saying is stop spinning. When you spin, your h sees it and sees it as needy. Then he sees it as selfish. And what I mean by needy is selfish is that when someone is needy they are expecting someone to take care of their needs. Remember I was saying what your H is seeing. Personally, I say f*** your H. (I don;t mean this in a bad way, I mean it like trying to remember the combination of a masterlock you just found, but realizing it is easier to just go get a new one.) He is the one who keeps pulling you back in and you fall in. And then he sees a side he doesn't like. You are the one who needs to change that dance.

So to answer your questions.

Does it mean not coming here and trying to figure things out?

It seems to me that you have been doing that without success. Do a 180.

Does it mean not taking responsibility for what I feel I have done wrong?

Seems to me from reading your posts (a sampling from your first post), you have already done that. No need to keep doing it.

Does it mean not allowing myself to feel badly over the things I have done wrong?

Again, you have done that. No need to keep doing it.

I wanted to dissect it so I could avoid doing things like it again.

Again, I see you know. Don't think so much. Sometimes, you just have to put things to the side and let the answers come. Some of my best thoughts and actions came from not thinking. And also, some of the things I thought were wrong, really were not. The more I tried to figure out, the more I drove myself nuts.

So, Pam, I never intended to be harsh or to add insult to injury. All I tried to say was f*** it. What you have been doing in regards to your H for 4 years hasn't worked, so just stop doing it. You will feel better. And then, you can really see where things will go.

Does this make sense?

IMP