muddled and angry: Puddle's sencond thread

[S.T. _I Made It!]

Even though you feel he is still determined to end it...I really think this is a great step. This is so much better for the kids, and he's showing understanding for your hurt he has caused. There is still lots of time to make this work, and you have no idea that there is still a D in your future. Dotie was totally right about all that.

I do think that you need to be careful on showing the vulnerability. Take it slow, because it can very easily point blame, or cause guilt to the WAS, and you really don't want that. You want to continue to show strength to him for the most part, but of course you don't need to pretend to be superwoman either. So find a good balance with that, an honest balance.

don't lose hope, you still have lots of hope to keep fighting.

[Puddle]

Hey cliffy!

What do you need to do for yourself? Who is the person you want to be?

Indeed. Here are my big-time goals:

1) Unflappable zen mama: I want to be a person who doesn't fret in the face of the unexpected (be that H is going to be late for work, the kids made a huge mess or won't get in the tub, or H decides he's done with the M)--- less stressing out, waaaaay more lightening up

2) I want to be assertive about what I want and think, not wishy-washy or passive or pandering to H (or anyone else)

3) I want to live from a place of courage instead of fear, which means taking risks that feel scary instead of feeling afraid and not taking risks. I want to put myself out there (and to H) 100%, allow myself to be vulnerable, even if it means getting hurt. (And remember that keeping walls up doesn't keep me from getting hurt anyway!)

ST: Are you talking to me (you wrote CVA)? Yes, distraction is good. I've got so much distraction going on right now, but a lot of it is negative (dad in the hospital, mom freaking out, trip to aunt's memorial service, etc) and it doesn't help with the general state of things. Now good things coming up: camping with close friend for the next couple days, big group camping trip (including H), to wine country for visit with inlaws (with H), so that should help. And I'm taking care of all kinds of practical business that I'd usually let H do, which is a boost for my PMA and feeling of self-sufficiency. I can get the damn brakes fixed myself!

Re lightening up (and humor, which Dottie encouraged me to cultivate, especially re my sitch): Tonight I asked H if my friend can use his sleeping bag. Now, he's always been a bit funny about that kind of thing. He hesitated, said it was a little intimate. I asked if I could use it and she can use mine? He hesitated again and asked if I'd wear socks. He said, "Call me peculiar..." and I said, "Oh, I do."

Didn't do so well when I was reading the boards and he asked if I'm using the new thingamajig he set up and reached for the computer. I pulled it away and closed the window. He said, "Get rid of all the incriminating evidence?" I said, "No incriminating evidence," and missed the opportunity to say something silly instead. Still working on it.

Thanks for checking in!

[Puddle]

Hey Heim! How are those studly legs doing?

but now he seems to be coming around but _still_ being totally done.

I'm living this. On the one hand, it's terrifying. On the other, a little liberating.

When I first read this, I thought, yeah, I can see that. Now I'm not sure what you mean about "liberating." Could you expound on that?

even if your H ever says "I just don't like you," it doesn't have to be permanent.

Yes, this is what I'm trying to keep in mind. Also that just because I'm not particularly fond of him at the moment doesn't mean I won't be in the future or that I don't want to continue to work on this.

You DB coach said it's OK to be vulnerable? She give you any tips for that without getting into a deep R talk?

She said that because one of the big problems in our R as I see it is that I keep distance between me and H, showing vulnerability is a 180 for me. (This is one of the things I was confused about when not talking about my feelings---we lacked connection because I wouldn't connect and now I'm not supposed to open up?) With that in mind, she said that when H initiates an R talk, I could bring that up. She said to be brief, like I did when H was on his tear about my cheeriness being an act and how he'd be feeling hurt, sad, etc. I finally said, "Sure I'm feeling sad, hurt, and angry. And right now I'm focusing on becoming the person I want to be." See, I can be brief! She didn't say NOT to get into a big R talk, and to be honest, when H starts them and I'm willing, they're anything but brief.

I guess I took it this way: I can show him what I want to re my feelings (in brief), even cry a little if I want, and then I'm going to listen listen listen. He likes to talk, too, so I'm just gathering info and validating.

How do you show emotion/vulnerability without talking too damn much?

You shut up.

But seriously, to take a tip from you, you write down the one or two things you want to say, you cut them down to one sentence each, and you say them. Then you stop. At least that's what I'm planning on doing. How about this: "I'm feeling so sad about the loss of security I had, which I really valued, believing that you'd always stand by me, and that's going to take some time to get past."

I'm not saying I'm going to say that, but it's an example of stating a feeling briefly and honestly. What do you think? If you have any examples, I'd love to hear them.

I do think that you need to be careful on showing the vulnerability. Take it slow, because it can very easily point blame, or cause guilt to the WAS, and you really don't want that. You want to continue to show strength to him for the most part, but of course you don't need to pretend to be superwoman either. So find a good balance with that, an honest balance.

That's the key, isn't it? The same thing Heim was asking. It's going to be a tightrope walk, with lots of careful gauging and changing tack if necessary. For me, saying clearly what I want and sharing my feelings---especially re this sitch and in the face of H's formidable debating skills---are both 180s. I want to avoid saying things designed to induce guilt (believe me, I've spent a lot of time sharpening those weapons) but still speak the truth about what it feels like on this end.

And weirdly, regardless of all this insanity, H has really told me very little about what he thinks of our R, what problems he ever had with me, and what he's missing. He's also said several times that "a lot of things came together at once," making this a really hard time for him, but hasn't elaborated on that, and I think it would be useful to hear about them.

Take care, everyone. I sure appreciate your input.

[S.T. _I Made It!]

"I'm feeling so sad about the loss of security I had, which I really valued, believing that you'd always stand by me, and that's going to take some time to get past."

I think that is okay, except for "you'd always stand by me" part. why not say, "believing that we would always be married". then it's not so much pointing fingers.

definitely go for the 180s. if anything, it throws them for a loop and just helps the confusion....which is a good thing at this time.

You may never find out what your H was missing. I never did. I'm assuming I must have figured part of it out since he came back though. Just try to reflect on the times that were good and what you were doing differently then, or even the times that were bad and what you were doing or not doing.

[Not Much Left]

Hi Puddle!
Sounds like you are struggling a bit on where things might stand w/ him vis-a-vis no feedback. Been thinking a lot about that myself.

Questions
1. When do you have an R talk? What has your C said?
2. When you have it, what the hell do you say?
3. I suck at this, I am realizing I have no valuable input. I am asking these questions for you and me and others because the pat answers are never, let them come to you? B.S. it may never happen and what do you do then, stay in limbo forever? And when your having it validate blah, blah blah, when are they going to validate? I was in the shower just now and went through the whole talk w/ my W (alone) and realized that I really do have issues w/ my W that if she does not change, we will never be "happy" or "fulfilled" (more BS) but seriously, I dont want it, do you?

C

[Puddle]

Hey everyone!

I just got back from camping with the kids and a close friend who lives far away---soooo nice to see her, but a rough time with the kids. Overall pretty good, though, and I realized that there were entire stretches there when I didn't think of H! It's possible. How about that?

The night before I left we had a long talk about the email he sent me. It started off stilted and awkward, where I asked him to tell me more about a few things.

Then he went back to one of our very early talks when I said I still wanted to be married to him. He said he'd asked himself why? Because I define myself by my marriage? Because of the standing it gives me? I told him being married is a part of who I am, but doesn't define me, that I've spent so much time and energy becoming the mom I want to be, and now I'm working on becoming the person I want to be.

I said, "I don't need to be married to you, but I want to be." He said, "See, we're still not communicating." He doesn't understand how it's possible to want something that just isn't, said if our roles were reversed, he'd be sad, but he wouldn't want to be married to me if I clearly said it's over. Said there's a huge disconnect if one of us wants out but the other wants to hold on.

He said even if he got hit on the head tomorrow and changed his mind, he doesn't believe it could work. "How could you just go back?" I said, "Oh, I don't want to go back; that marriage is over. We'd both have to really want it, and it would be a lot of work, but I believe it's possible." He said, "Ahhh, so essentially you'd want to go forward, pretty much from scratch. Yeah, that makes more sense."

So apparently that cleared up a misunderstanding I hadn't realized we were having, and I was happy about that. And happy that he didn't immediately explain why *that* would be impossible, too.


He said he wants to be with a different kind of person and it wouldn't be fair to ask me to change (because people don't change, right?). I asked him what kind of person he thinks I am and what kind of person he wants to be with. The example he gave me this time was that he's a rational relativist, whereas I reach a point where I just say "it's just how I feel, what I believe."

Essentially he wants someone who thinks like he does, I guess. Funny---his relativism is one of the things I've always liked about him, though it's made me crazy occasionally. And no 180 is going to turn me into a relativist, I don't think.

He gave me some good info: said he sees me as a person who's often influenced by fear and doesn't share her feelings. So I told him (again) that I'm sad and hurt about the sitch, and I have moments of anger, but I know that won't last forever (my subtle way of saying "feelings change").

And I got to say, "And no matter what happens, I'm not afraid." It might have been more accurate to say, "I have some fear, but I'm not going to bow to it anymore," but it felt good to say out loud to him something I've decided about how I want to be. He said, "That's good. You couldn't have said that a year ago," and I said that was true.

So his perception reinforced my idea that the 180s I'm working on might surprise him---we're on the same page re me and what makes me tick.

We talked about his point that how we proceed from here has more to do with me than with him. He said I still haven't told him what I want from him, and I repeated what I'd said before: I want him to respect my requests and to be a good papa, both of which he's doing.

I said I didn't know what else I could ask him for, and he said I could get a sitter and ask him to hang out and talk Friday nights (like we used to). I said I'd be happy to do that, just to let me know. I thought that was positive, as he hasn't asked to spend any time with me alone at all. I'm not sure he meant that he'd want to do that, though, just that I could ask him, like a chore.

At the end of all this I told him I was happy he's still here, and he asked why. I said first because of the kids, but he said, "But what about you? Why are you glad?" I said, "Because it's important to me to see you every day and know what's going on in your life. Because you challenge me---you always have, and you're challenging me now (laughing). Because you make me laugh. And because I think we can be friends." He sat for a moment and said, "Wow, that's huge. Thank you."

So it all ended on a very friendly note. It helped a lot to be thinking about being friends instead of feeling scared that this is all part of a long goodbye (which, of course, it may be). It felt for the first time in a long time like we were on the same team.

That's what I remember from the conversation. Talking with my friend, she said she was impressed with how all this is going down, as hard as it is, said she felt a lot of respect for H. I realized I haven't given him much credit for sticking around, trying to help me through as best he can even while he's dealing with his part, etc. That's really hard to do, and my anger sometimes screams "So, it could be worse, but this is bad enough!" But feeling better about him helps with the anger, too. It was interesting to hear the perspective of an outsider who's not dealing with something similar. Surprised me.

Hey CVA!

1. When do you have an R talk? What has your C said?

Well, I think my sitch is a little different than some other folks' here, since H wants to talk and wants ME to start the convos. For example, he sent me that long email then asked, "Did you get my email?" I was too tired to talk then, so the next night when we were sitting together and he closed his laptop (signaling not working anymore), I brought it up.

Also, we haven't had a ton of talks since the bomb, so this is all new ground for us. He's never not wanted to talk about it or signaled that he's tired of it and wants me to stop.

C said since part of our problem (as I see it) is I don't share feelings and sharing them is one of my goals---as is being more assertive---I could bring it up once in a while.

For most folks, I guess the old "let them bring it up" probably applies.

2. When you have it, what the hell do you say?

Well, I guess that depends. Me responding to his emails is easy, gives us a jumping-off point. Still, when we're talking, I stick to the details about where we go from here and only talk about the (past) R and M when he says something about it.

What do you want to say?

never, let them come to you? B.S. it may never happen and what do you do then, stay in limbo forever?

I think if your W doesn't want to talk about it and you bring it up, it's not going to go well for you anyway. Do you agree? And how long you stay in limbo is completely up to you. How long are you willing to wait? From what others have said, I think you'll know when you're done. I know I'm not, though.

And when your having it validate blah, blah blah, when are they going to validate?

Maybe never. You can't do anything about that. And it sucks.

I was in the shower just now and went through the whole talk w/ my W (alone) and realized that I really do have issues w/ my W that if she does not change, we will never be "happy" or "fulfilled" (more BS) but seriously, I dont want it, do you?

To be happy and fulfilled? Of course. To stay in an R with a person who refuses to make changes to improve the R? Maybe not. But that's a long way down the line from now, and I have enough to worry about with changing me to bother right now about whether H is willing to make changes.

I look at it like this: when I reach the point where I'm feeling really good about myself and the changes I've made, then I can take a good, hard look at H and see if he's what I want. If he's not and doesn't show any interest in making changes himself, I get to decide what to do then. But since I'm not at that point yet, for me it makes more sense to stay the course and keep riding the wave with him. If I left now (emotionally or physically), I'd still have to do the work on me. So why not do it with him? That make sense?

I'm off to catch up with all of you now, and I'll look forward to your input. Take care.

[L21959]

Hi Puddle --

Think this is my first time posting to you, but i've been following your thread. This really resonated with me:

I look at it like this: when I reach the point where I'm feeling really good about myself and the changes I've made, then I can take a good, hard look at H and see if he's what I want. If he's not and doesn't show any interest in making changes himself, I get to decide what to do then. But since I'm not at that point yet, for me it makes more sense to stay the course and keep riding the wave with him. If I left now (emotionally or physically), I'd still have to do the work on me. So why not do it with him? That make sense?

It makes a ton of sense to me...it's actually almost the same conversation I had with my new C earlier this week when I was relaying to her my sitch and explaining why, after all this time, I'm still hanging in there. It also sounds like you and I are working on some of the same things...

For me, the reality is that i've only fairly recently (a matter of months, not years) really started to get my head around my role in how our R got to where it is (dead) now. The truth is, it's taken a really long time for our R to get where it got, and so, even if things get better someday, it's going to take a loooong time of consistent change on my part and looooots of patience.

And right now I, like you, make the choice still to do that work on myself within the framework of an intact family...I may not always have that option, and I may ultimately choose to alter my choice. But not for now...

I hope you have a great weekend...

L

[S.T. _I Made It!]

I'm so glad to hear about your convo! And so good about you saying you don't want the old marriage anymore! That's exactly what I told my H. I think that really changes things. They are totally under the assumption that we want everything how it was, but that wasn't good either. We may have been content, but we weren't "happy". anyways, I wasn't.


Very good steps!

I think your H is telling you to initiate too. If he doesn't bring up going on in a few weeks, I think you should do it and be excited about it....make some really cool plans or something and don't be afraid of rejection (don't let him see you upset if he said no).

have a wonderful weekend! I'll be praying for you!

[Puddle]

Hey L,

Welcome to my life! Sounds like we have a lot in common. Re you may not always feel like you do now and want to stick with H, I thought about adding that in my conversation but decided against it. I think I'll hold onto that card for a while. Thanks for writing!

Hey ST!

They are totally under the assumption that we want everything how it was, but that wasn't good either. We may have been content, but we weren't "happy". anyways, I wasn't.

Nor was I. It was funny to me to realize he really thought I was just hanging on to what was, which so clearly seems like a bad idea. But he was, and now I know that he was thinking I was a real dolt.

I think your H is telling you to initiate too. If he doesn't bring up going on in a few weeks, I think you should do it and be excited about it....make some really cool plans or something and don't be afraid of rejection (don't let him see you upset if he said no).

Maybe he is; it sure felt like it. I'll think of something and invite him, see what he says.

I realized today---those machines at the gym always seem to get my mind going---that the conversation where I really share my feelings with him has yet to take place. It's one thing to say "I'm sad" and another to be totally honest. I know that the R I really want to have requires me to be vulnerable and that it's very hard for me, but I'm going to have to do it, for me, regardless of whether it helps this R or not.

As I was thinking about it I asked myself, well, what's making me sad? I really got on a roll and realized I'd have to jump off that train of thought if I didn't want to start crying at the gym! So there's a lot of sadness there, of course, and I'm going to have to tap into it (alone) and then figure out how to share it with H (and how much). This is going to be hard work. Feels like therapy.

H just told me he'd been talking to a colleague who's going through a nasty divorce and asked me if I'd feel better to have things in writing. It was really kind, and I appreciated it, but still thought oh mercy. I said thank you, I'll think about it.

He keeps asking me if I need more time (to myself, with him taking the kids) and whether I'll feel comfortable asking for it if I do. I haven't yet, but especially thinking about the sadness, etc, I'm going to need some space for that---can't do it with the kids. Now I just have to figure out where to go, I guess.

I'm thinking about taking off early Sunday and going somewhere, but where do you go to be sad? I can't sit in the car, don't want to cry in public, etc. Maybe one of those silent zen retreat places? Maybe a Ritz-Carlton? Where to go for a self-actualizing day trip?

Take care, everyone.

[Puddle]

Okay, anyone have any thoughts on the "would you feel better if you had something in writing?" question?