By the way I think I have heard of HR issues with the latest group of college graduates. They seem to have real issues with taking critical assessment on the job. To hear a criticism seems to hit them very hard. A theory is that they have been treated so delicately that they don't know how to react positively to getting critical feedback. That could be a big problem in the workforce.
I've heard of that too. Parenting articles today warn of doling out too much praise. They advise praising children for specific things they do that are beyond typical every day stuff. Too much praise and the child comes to expect to be praised for every little thing and then cannot handle any criticism.
Maybe this is just a humungous (sp?) tangent, but I see a *massive* difference between "You got yourself up there, you can get yourself down" and "no one in our family ever chickened out" (yes, I know they were both hypotheticals).
The first is a version of "you can do it" but I suppose it seems better because it recognizes that a certain amount of gumption was required to even get into the predicament ("up there") in the first place. And it's calling on that same courage and determination to get back down.
The second does seem pretty toxic. Because it's comparing me to everyone else in the family, and if (say) I already have doubts that I can live up to that standard, this just exacerbates them. Plus, it's really calling on a kind of projected (enforced?) communal strength which I may or may not feel tapped in to, as opposed to my innate strength which is always at my disposal if only I can grasp it.
Do I think this level of navel-gazing is really going through the stuck kid's mind? ..... nah. Well, not conscious level ....
Reading all this and reflecting on my own childhood, I think the best gift you could ever give your child is some version of "You screwed up here, but hey, guess what? that's ok". And not hiding your own errors from them. And balancing "you could have done better" with "you did absolutely great".
"Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock." -- Frank Herbert
The common thread on this board for me is that my H most closely resembles your 2BX, Corri's X and Fearless' X. It's starting to feel like all the smart girls made the right decision.
In what way do you think they resemble each other? They all seem very different to me except for the fact that your H and my 2bx are both inclined towards black moods and alcohol dependency.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Not sure if you're replying directly to me or in general....
I agree with what you said. For me, the "chicken" statement is really bad, and one that I would *never* say to any kid, my own or anyone else's. It conjures up all sorts of feelings I had as a kid of being different than the rest of my family, and in a bad way.
However, I realize that we're all different, so I'm allowing for the fact that some family members may be able to speak to one another like this and challenge each other and see it as a joke or a type of encouragement.
As a parent, it is my job to figure out my child's personality/temperament and then RESPECT it through my interactions with him.
Also look at the facts, Fran's family and mine were tough on us and we don't have shame issues while our husbands families were protective and positive and they seem to be the ones with shame issues.
Fearless, you seem like a very differentiated and generally together person to me but I wanted to ask you something. I believe you indicated that you were bulimic as an adult while you were married. I guess my question is how can a person who is differentiated and happy in their primary relationship and not inclined towards shame manifest that type of behavior. I've definitely had tendencies towards overeating at various times in my life and I engaged in some borderline type bulimic activities in my late teens, like over-exercising while wearing plastic or fasting. If I think about the emotions or states of mind that might drive such behavior, I would definitely include shame. I might feel shame because I did a "bad" thing and ate a whole bag of Doritos or I might anticipate feeling shame if I was viewed as being unattractive. Also, the oral compulsion that drives the sort of mindless overeating common in bulimia would seem to be indicative of a need to self-comfort. I'm sure you know more about the topic than me and I might just be spouting psycho-babble off the top of my head.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Fascinating link, Martelo. Especially the linked article in New York at the end. Highly, highly recommended, kids or no ... (the stuff about insincere praise, particularly, seems applicable everywhere...)
Thanks for the link, Martelo. I've read this same advice in other parenting articles.
I have banished such phrases as "what a good boy" and "what a smart boy" and "you're a good helper/fill-in-the-blank" from my interactions with S4, and I really notice it when grandma or another well-meaning person makes one of those statements. I try to reference the specific job he did -- "you did a great job on that drawing of a tree" or "thank you for helping me clear the table."
The other advice I've read is not to tell the child that *every* drawing or effort is a great job, but to say it only when you really do think that it is an outstanding job. Then the praise actually means something and the child continues working to improve his skills and to learn new ones.
When my dad would say - and it was paraphrasing when I said *no one in our family chickened out* but when my dad would ask us to live up to the family values that would give us more faith in ourselves. It would make us think I can do this because I'm made of the same stuff that the others who wouldn't give in are made of. It's kind of like "believe in yourself" but if you are just a kid of 8 there's not much to believe in. Whereas you are a member of a family/tribe that are capable and can do things is a much stronger and more reinforcing statement to make.
I definitely do believe that people that were essentially *lied* to as kids by families that were overly positive and supportive - in other words glossed over their failings and acted like everything was great - have no self esteem. I think this is because they do know their flaws and because no-one is being honest about their flaws then how do they know they're being honest about their merits?
Children do know the difference between praise that is worth something and praise that is just flannel. They might wonder why you feel like they need flannel. It might make them think they are too weak to cope with the truth, which is undermining rather than supportive.
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
Fearless, you seem like a very differentiated and generally together person to me but I wanted to ask you something.
Mojo, I am soooo glad you wrote "seems"!!! I'd like to think I'm a generally together person but I have my moments (well days or weeks is more like it!). I guess I long ago (in my late 20s) lost my need to appear perfect to people. I think I have "always" been fairly differentiated but it's something I have definitely worked on and improved upon in adulthood. Although what's interesting is that I don't think you don't really work directly on being differentiated (I never really heard of that exact term for it until here); rather you work on yourself and becoming the person you want to be and owning your decisions - whether they are successful or not. I believe you indicated that you were bulimic as an adult while you were married.
No, I was severely bulimic for about 9 months starting Spring quarter my freshman year. it began as a specific way to lose weight and was "successful." However it did spiral into your description of feeling shame for this horrible thing I was doing. The first step I tried was not to eat in order to not purge. The problem was that if I ate half a sandwich late in the afternoon I would feel like a failure and go right into my binge/purge cycle as a "punishment." Eventually the only way I found to get over it was to just let myself eat and gain some weight. I guess my question is how can a person who is differentiated and happy in their primary relationship and not inclined towards shame manifest that type of behavior.
Well I was 19, I was not in a good relationship and my overeating and purging was not initially about shame or compulsion. However shame DID become of the dynamic when I realized I felt out of control to stop this behavior. Again just because I don't think I am "shame-prone" doesn't mean that I never experience shame. I just don't feel it too easily and when I do feel it, I usually can turn it to guilt. I tend MORE toward "guilt-proneness."
I think my writing here is no where near in-depth and/or clear enough. I sometimes reread my posts and wonder if it seems I insinuate that being differentiated is some sort of absolute state in which nothing ever unduly or irrationally affects you and you are always on the ball with your feelings. I more see my state of being as continual progress to a healthier relationship with myself. My relationship with myself has been one I have worked with for a long time. When my XH and I married at 27, I told him I was not ready for kids. By the time I was about 32, I felt I had gotten to the point where I felt like I had substantially matured and was a much healthier person and was ready to be a mother. And now I look at how much I have grown over the last 6 years and am amazed. And yet I still have SOOOOOO much more work to do!!!!
And again even though I feel I am differentiated, I still can feel hurt by others. I would be a complete liar if I said that Cobra's punch didn't make me flinch. He's a guy who doesn't know me at all but I did have that dual reaction of 1) does he really think I am an emasculating feminist b!tch who drove her XH away from her and 2) did I deserve to receive that kind of response?
However I did in quick time (minutes) straighten out that no I am not an emasculating b!tch whose XH was "driven" away by me and no I don't deserve to have some relative stranger take pot shots at me. What I did realize is that on some level Cobra had felt hurt by me and felt a need to lash out at me. His response to Mrs. Nop confirmed too.
So my point is that a differentiated state isn't necessarily a perfect state, it is a work in progress.
I just reread this quote from the Dalai Lama today Someone else's action should not determine your response.
Really think about it.
I read this a few years ago and it is exactly the state of being I STRIVE toward some times more successfully than other times.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
