Hmmm. That seems like a short conversation when you can't get into what you're laughing at or frustrated about.
I don't think it's impossible to get into it. It's just a matter of remembering that your audience isn't an expert, therefore you need to break down the information in a way that they can understand it. This is what a good teacher does, right?
But one should regularly give the ol' right brain a good workout anyway and keep it humming, since one can't dance in any form without it.
Hmm, this doesn't strike a chord with me too well. MrsGGB has a higher IQ than I do. Granted, I am more technical, but only because she gave up her career to be a SAHM (she was a systems analyst working for HP). I'm not exactly a slouch either, I'm a hardware designer that has become well known in my niche. Anyway, as far as keeping my stuff to myself, nothing could be further from the truth. I get pleasure out of teaching what I've learned to others (actually, truth be told it is probably more a charge out of showing off what I know, LOL), and have built a business doing that.
Burg, as far as ground cars and pace of technology, I actually see the other side of the coin. Look how far we've come in the last 100 years compared to how long it took to get where were were 100 years ago. The pace of technology seems to be increasing exponentially.
(Cobra) IMO, if you ever have to tell someone else that you will not tolerate such-and-such behavior, then you are already in deep sh*t, and that is as much your responsibility as the other person’s. Better to track the pulse of the “balance” in the R to be sure the above situations does not develop.
If one is in the mindset I was describing, I very seriously doubt they would "tell" without also doing.
Tracking the pulse of the balance in the R, rather than handling your own end and letting the chips fall, is the tail wagging the dog.
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
FWIW I married a HS valedictorian, National Merit Scholar, 34 or something like that on ACT, graduated 4th in her class as a Math major/French minor at a top 25 undergrad school, made higher grades than me in EVERY class that we both took in college ... type girl.
although I am a physicist/astronomer, and that makes me smarter than everyone ... LOL
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
I have thought on this a lot and believe that D14 is actually uncomfortable with too much mushy feelings because she has not seen that modeled to her, what with all the fighting W and I have done over the years. So even though D14 wants the frivolity, she is uncomfortable with how it feels because she has not experienced it enough. We are aware of this and are working on it. Could this be the same for your H?
Maybe. But I doubt it is the same for my H. His family seem to be comfortable with mush. They always pick out birthday cards with the long mushy verses. But they don't seem to use humour the way my family would to reduce tension and try to lift people's spirits. No I think he is that way because his family are all that way, they take life very seriously.
An interesting thing happened the other week when we took the kids to an indoor climbing wall. There was a group of other kids there all aged about 8 or 9 and one of these children couldn't get down off a ledge because his fear of heights kicked in. The other kids were all at the bottom looking up and calling out things like "you can do it" and "believe in yourself". Which I just found hilariously mushy. It made me think about how the same scenario would have been played when I was a kid and I'm pretty sure the kids at the bottom would have been yelling things like "chicken" and "nyer nyer scaredy pants". Which in my own case would have provoked an anger reaction which would have given me the boost I needed to get down the wall. Being told to "believe in yourself" would have just made me feel worse - like "what's to believe in - I can't get down". If on the other hand someone like my dad was at the bottom he would have made it quite clear (without being rude) that staying on the ledge wasn't going to cut it and I would have to make my own way down. Saying things like "no-one in our family ever chickened out" or "you made it up there, you can make it down".
Anyway the kid being told to believe in himself had to be rescued.
Which is why I think the Deida idea of the man being a rock works. It raises the bar. You can only believe in yourself if you've been given something to believe in. Given a chance to come up to a high set of standard and met them. It's no good someone stooping down to your mush level, they just keep you there.
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
Maybe. But I doubt it is the same for my H. His family seem to be comfortable with mush. They always pick out birthday cards with the long mushy verses. But they don't seem to use humour the way my family would to reduce tension and try to lift people's spirits. No I think he is that way because his family are all that way, they take life very seriously.
Huh? What you describe sounds like they don’t like mushy emotions, except for birthdays cards.
The other kids were all at the bottom looking up and calling out things like "you can do it" and "believe in yourself". Which I just found hilariously mushy.
Wow. I don’t see anything mushy in that at all. I hear support and encouragement, but those comments aren’t what I would consider mushy.
It made me think about how the same scenario would have been played when I was a kid and I'm pretty sure the kids at the bottom would have been yelling things like "chicken" and "nyer nyer scaredy pants".
I don’t think this is non-mushy. I think this is abusive. Kids can be mean.
If on the other hand someone like my dad was at the bottom he would have made it quite clear (without being rude) that staying on the ledge wasn't going to cut it and I would have to make my own way down. Saying things like "no-one in our family ever chickened out" or "you made it up there, you can make it down".
This sounds very shaming to me. Not supportive, not encouraging, not empathic.
Which is why I think the Deida idea of the man being a rock works. It raises the bar. You can only believe in yourself if you've been given something to believe in. Given a chance to come up to a high set of standard and met them. It's no good someone stooping down to your mush level, they just keep you there.
I agree in part. But what one person considers mushy may be normal encouragement others, or what one considers normal encouragement may sound harsh to another. If you give your H the kind of “mushy” comments like your dad gave you, I can see why he might feel disconnected from you. He might feel more like you shame him.
Tracking the pulse of the balance in the R, rather than handling your own end and letting the chips fall, is the tail wagging the dog.
Funny, I see most of us as being here because we let the tail wag the dog and allowed things to get unbalanced. I think applying what we have learned to prevent imbalance in the first place is a preemptive action, not a reactive action.
This sounds very shaming to me. Not supportive, not encouraging, not empathic.
Cobra, I'm not sure why this seems shaming to you. You mention shame a lot but there are times I don't think you have a full understanding of what shame is and how it develops. Also look at the facts, Fran's family and mine were tough on us and we don't have shame issues while our husbands families were protective and positive and they seem to be the ones with shame issues.
I can't speak to Fran's family but I talked to a couple of my friends who had similar families to me. Our families were difficult, demanding and tough on us. We were always expected to do our best and there were times where our families have let us know that we have let them down with our mistakes. YET we all feel like our families are always there for us and we do feel loved for who we are. Their demands on us make us feel like we are CAPABLE and not that we are incapable.
What I don't really understand from fran is why "you can do it" sounds so much different to her than "you made it up there, you can make it down." To me that are both statements telling someone they are capable of doing it. Our family was a bit more emotional also so mushiness isn't a problem for me as long as it isn't coddling.
Oddly enough my XH's shame developed in a family where he wasn't told anything negative about himself. So how did shame develop? Because he felt that the only way he was worthy of love was to never to something wrong, to never get critiqued, to not make mistakes, etc. Now who in the WORLD can get through life without making a mistake? Also what kind of relationship can you have with a person if telling them they forgot the milk "makes" them feel shamed???
So really the bottom line about shame versus guilt is that guilt is feeling you DID something bad and SHAME is feeling you ARE something bad. So shame can weirdly enough be developed by these two seemingly opposite behaviors 1)directly telling your child that they are not worthy, are bad, etc. and being mentally abusive or 2) not letting your child know that they have done something wrong because you are so afraid of damaging their self-esteem. Because then they can develop a feeling that they have to hide their "true self" because no one will love them if they really KNOW them.
We all need to develop a feeling that even when we fail, we are NOT failures.
ETA: By the way I think I have heard of HR issues with the latest group of college graduates. They seem to have real issues with taking critical assessment on the job. To hear a criticism seems to hit them very hard. A theory is that they have been treated so delicately that they don't know how to react positively to getting critical feedback. That could be a big problem in the workforce.
Last edited by fearless; 09/14/0706:23 PM.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
What I don't really understand from fran is why "you can do it" sounds so much different to her than "you made it up there, you can make it down." To me that are both statements telling someone they are capable of doing it.
I don't think they are necessarily different. To me, "you can do it" is a positive statement. I have used that statement with S4 many times. I've also told him "you got up there, you can get down" but I made sure to say it also in a positive, encouraging way, as if to say that I have the confidence that he can figure it out on his own without my help. And when he does figure it out he is very pleased with himself and his confidence gets a boost.
However, the statement, "no one in this family is a chicken" could be shaming if spoken with the attitude of "what's the matter with you? What are you afraid of? You're acting like a chicken" etc. It depends on who is saying it, how they're saying it, who they're saying it to, what kind of relationship the two have, etc. If one of my parents had said that to me, I think I would have felt shamed.
Don't forget about temperament and personality types. Some people will be naturally more afraid of things than others and they can't help that. They are born that way. My son was born that way. I do what I can to encourage him and not coddle him, but I also try to understand where he's coming from.
It was interesting to hear Fran's account of the kids at the climbing wall. I have yet to experience any such supportive behavior from children at a playground. The few times that S4 has been afraid and has called out to me to help him he's been ignored by children who have climbed over him or pushed him out of the way, or he's been called a baby. Telling him that no one in our family is chicken (which would be a lie, BTW) would not help him.
Telling him that no one in our family is chicken (which would be a lie, BTW) would not help him.