muddled and angry: Puddle's sencond thread

[Puddle]

Hey everyone!

I just got back from camping with the kids and a close friend who lives far away---soooo nice to see her, but a rough time with the kids. Overall pretty good, though, and I realized that there were entire stretches there when I didn't think of H! It's possible. How about that?

The night before I left we had a long talk about the email he sent me. It started off stilted and awkward, where I asked him to tell me more about a few things.

Then he went back to one of our very early talks when I said I still wanted to be married to him. He said he'd asked himself why? Because I define myself by my marriage? Because of the standing it gives me? I told him being married is a part of who I am, but doesn't define me, that I've spent so much time and energy becoming the mom I want to be, and now I'm working on becoming the person I want to be.

I said, "I don't need to be married to you, but I want to be." He said, "See, we're still not communicating." He doesn't understand how it's possible to want something that just isn't, said if our roles were reversed, he'd be sad, but he wouldn't want to be married to me if I clearly said it's over. Said there's a huge disconnect if one of us wants out but the other wants to hold on.

He said even if he got hit on the head tomorrow and changed his mind, he doesn't believe it could work. "How could you just go back?" I said, "Oh, I don't want to go back; that marriage is over. We'd both have to really want it, and it would be a lot of work, but I believe it's possible." He said, "Ahhh, so essentially you'd want to go forward, pretty much from scratch. Yeah, that makes more sense."

So apparently that cleared up a misunderstanding I hadn't realized we were having, and I was happy about that. And happy that he didn't immediately explain why *that* would be impossible, too.


He said he wants to be with a different kind of person and it wouldn't be fair to ask me to change (because people don't change, right?). I asked him what kind of person he thinks I am and what kind of person he wants to be with. The example he gave me this time was that he's a rational relativist, whereas I reach a point where I just say "it's just how I feel, what I believe."

Essentially he wants someone who thinks like he does, I guess. Funny---his relativism is one of the things I've always liked about him, though it's made me crazy occasionally. And no 180 is going to turn me into a relativist, I don't think.

He gave me some good info: said he sees me as a person who's often influenced by fear and doesn't share her feelings. So I told him (again) that I'm sad and hurt about the sitch, and I have moments of anger, but I know that won't last forever (my subtle way of saying "feelings change").

And I got to say, "And no matter what happens, I'm not afraid." It might have been more accurate to say, "I have some fear, but I'm not going to bow to it anymore," but it felt good to say out loud to him something I've decided about how I want to be. He said, "That's good. You couldn't have said that a year ago," and I said that was true.

So his perception reinforced my idea that the 180s I'm working on might surprise him---we're on the same page re me and what makes me tick.

We talked about his point that how we proceed from here has more to do with me than with him. He said I still haven't told him what I want from him, and I repeated what I'd said before: I want him to respect my requests and to be a good papa, both of which he's doing.

I said I didn't know what else I could ask him for, and he said I could get a sitter and ask him to hang out and talk Friday nights (like we used to). I said I'd be happy to do that, just to let me know. I thought that was positive, as he hasn't asked to spend any time with me alone at all. I'm not sure he meant that he'd want to do that, though, just that I could ask him, like a chore.

At the end of all this I told him I was happy he's still here, and he asked why. I said first because of the kids, but he said, "But what about you? Why are you glad?" I said, "Because it's important to me to see you every day and know what's going on in your life. Because you challenge me---you always have, and you're challenging me now (laughing). Because you make me laugh. And because I think we can be friends." He sat for a moment and said, "Wow, that's huge. Thank you."

So it all ended on a very friendly note. It helped a lot to be thinking about being friends instead of feeling scared that this is all part of a long goodbye (which, of course, it may be). It felt for the first time in a long time like we were on the same team.

That's what I remember from the conversation. Talking with my friend, she said she was impressed with how all this is going down, as hard as it is, said she felt a lot of respect for H. I realized I haven't given him much credit for sticking around, trying to help me through as best he can even while he's dealing with his part, etc. That's really hard to do, and my anger sometimes screams "So, it could be worse, but this is bad enough!" But feeling better about him helps with the anger, too. It was interesting to hear the perspective of an outsider who's not dealing with something similar. Surprised me.

Hey CVA!

1. When do you have an R talk? What has your C said?

Well, I think my sitch is a little different than some other folks' here, since H wants to talk and wants ME to start the convos. For example, he sent me that long email then asked, "Did you get my email?" I was too tired to talk then, so the next night when we were sitting together and he closed his laptop (signaling not working anymore), I brought it up.

Also, we haven't had a ton of talks since the bomb, so this is all new ground for us. He's never not wanted to talk about it or signaled that he's tired of it and wants me to stop.

C said since part of our problem (as I see it) is I don't share feelings and sharing them is one of my goals---as is being more assertive---I could bring it up once in a while.

For most folks, I guess the old "let them bring it up" probably applies.

2. When you have it, what the hell do you say?

Well, I guess that depends. Me responding to his emails is easy, gives us a jumping-off point. Still, when we're talking, I stick to the details about where we go from here and only talk about the (past) R and M when he says something about it.

What do you want to say?

never, let them come to you? B.S. it may never happen and what do you do then, stay in limbo forever?

I think if your W doesn't want to talk about it and you bring it up, it's not going to go well for you anyway. Do you agree? And how long you stay in limbo is completely up to you. How long are you willing to wait? From what others have said, I think you'll know when you're done. I know I'm not, though.

And when your having it validate blah, blah blah, when are they going to validate?

Maybe never. You can't do anything about that. And it sucks.

I was in the shower just now and went through the whole talk w/ my W (alone) and realized that I really do have issues w/ my W that if she does not change, we will never be "happy" or "fulfilled" (more BS) but seriously, I dont want it, do you?

To be happy and fulfilled? Of course. To stay in an R with a person who refuses to make changes to improve the R? Maybe not. But that's a long way down the line from now, and I have enough to worry about with changing me to bother right now about whether H is willing to make changes.

I look at it like this: when I reach the point where I'm feeling really good about myself and the changes I've made, then I can take a good, hard look at H and see if he's what I want. If he's not and doesn't show any interest in making changes himself, I get to decide what to do then. But since I'm not at that point yet, for me it makes more sense to stay the course and keep riding the wave with him. If I left now (emotionally or physically), I'd still have to do the work on me. So why not do it with him? That make sense?

I'm off to catch up with all of you now, and I'll look forward to your input. Take care.