Cold differentiation, fusion and stuff.

[LustForLife]

I certainly don't think he could have handled me at all if I really had drawn my self-worth from him. Just THINKING I did drove him away.

Your exH sounds similar to my own H. I know I in part "drove him away" because I was so enmeshed with him. He felt overwhelmed with being responsible for my happiness.

LFL

[Burgbud]

I web navigated my practically complete response to your post into oblivion, so the discussion of Deida will have to wait as I now only have time to get to this:

(Cobra) Fine. Lets hear it.

The two relevant paragraphs, quoted in their entirety:

IMO, you are still espousing a very feminist mantra, one in which you think men need to be in touch with a woman's emotions, that the men should be focused on the woman's feelings for in that way conflict can be minimized and both will feel validated, secure and able to stand in a differentiated mode. But you model is not the kind of man I want to be or the kind of man I think anyone should be. I feel that a part of your "message" has a subtle emasculation of men that sort of turns me off the more I think of it. Sorry, that's just how I feel. I'm also beginning to develop suspicions why your H left you.

The message from your H is very much in line with what I was thinking. What I was going to guess is that he left you because you are much more highly differentiated than him.


Making those two pieces of communication congruent really sets my mind to spinning. I don't see how a rational person would be expected to extract the meaning explained in the second paragraph from the words written in the first. I suspect your wife deals with a lot of mixed messages of this type: "When I said that thing that had malicious overtones, what I meant was something totally benign." That can quickly build into a gaslighting effect and does very little to build trust.

[Corri]

Cobra:

Goodness you get grumpy when I start getting close to those hurts and fears... go easy, buddy. I'm not trying to hurt you. I'm not arguing with you, I'm not blaming you, I have a lot of respect for the fact that you show up here and tell us all you do about the state of your M... and you are trying to fix it.

I think what I have been saying is exactly what you said. I do talk and listen to her, almost everyday, about what went on at her work. I will listen at times up to 30 minutes, depending on what she has to say. Sometimes it is only 5 minutes. IT is usually a one way conversation. I ask a few questions to show some interest, but it mostly bores the heck out of me. But I do it.

Excellent. I'm glad to hear this.

Now. Next point. Each time you start a discussion with her, do you TELL her... YOUR internal state, and how much time you can give her? So she knows, each time? You eventually won't have to do this, but for now... I think it would not only help HER, it would help you... so YOU feel understood and respected when she DOES do it.

Just a thought. Grump.

Corri

[Cobra]

Fearless,

Now THAT was an interesting post and a completely different side of you than I had understood before. Good to see you finally open up that Pandora's box. Now it can start to come out. I'll ask more questions later.....

[fearless]

I know I in part "drove him away" because I was so enmeshed with him. He felt overwhelmed with being responsible for my happiness.

Yeah and can you imagine how frustrated I felt to feel like I was driving him away with feelings I DIDN'T EVEN FEEL!! I drove myself crazy trying to show him who I really was but he couldn't see me; he could only see his reflection of himself in me (of course I didn't even know that until it was too late). I tended to see the best in him and to see him how he wanted to be and how I knew he could be which isn't a bad thing; it was just hard for him to believe it when he couldn't see it himself.

[Cobra]

Corri,

No, I don't give her any time limits or even imply anything like that. I know that her discussions usually don't go too long anyway so I don't worry about it. In part, I know she is trying to do her part to improve communication between us, but I really don't think she is comfortable talking about intimate things between us. So it is either the kids or her work.

Lately we have had issues with the kids and their friends, the typical teenage girl stuff, getting into one another's business, gossip, hurt feelings, boys, etc. I told W this is all drama to make themselves feel included, important, etc, and how one girl seems to always be the "touch stone" for everyone, and so gets most of the drama.

I think W also sees that she creates drama at times, though she has not said anything to me, because her dramas seem to have declined in frequency. For now, and especially at the end of last school year, her work turned into her drama. So I listen to her and sometimes even try to offer my POV.

I don't expect her to respect me for listening to her school issues, I only expect her to see me doing my part to accommodate her attempts to improve our communication. I do believe that at some point the allure of the drama will die down and she will feel more comfortable speaking about H/W topics.

[Cobra]

Fearless,

Yeah and can you imagine how frustrated I felt to feel like I was driving him away with feelings I DIDN'T EVEN FEEL!! I drove myself crazy trying to show him who I really was but he couldn't see me;...

Ummmm...correct me if I'm wrong, but does this sound just a teensy bit like fusion???

[LustForLife]

Has it ever occurred to you that this might be one of his problems? If a man tries to live his life trying to placate a woman, focused on her needs, checking his actions so he does not step on her toes in any way or hurt her feelings, how is he going to be true to himself and his manhood. How can he be a man?

Whether is is a "problem" or not, he is who he is Cobra. But I really don't think having a more feminist outlook as a man is a problem. H taking on responsibililty for MY happiness was a problem however.
And being true to his "manhood" ????? That is just plain sexist Cobra. He is a MAN who happens to think women should have their own purpose in life. He did not truly respect me when my purpose was the relationship. Just because you believe that doesn't mean other men believe that.

Well, where have I heard that before….. let me think…. my wife??? Where did you get that message. Whose voice is saying that in your head?

Why are you so against women being more of an equal in R/M? It can work Cobra. In fact, it seems that is what your W is asking for. Why be so stubborn and stick to a belief system that is not working for your family?
I change my beliefs at times because I am always growing and adapting to the environment around me. It works.

I think I'll throw out one of my favorite quotes again:

"Needless consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." - Emerson

Why do you think I said mine are superior to hers? My list does not say that. My list is a set of instructions for men, not women. Dieda is for men.

Oh stop. If you really think you don't come off as Superior to your W and women in general you are not very self-aware.

LFL

[fearless]

Thanks Cobra. I actually have written a lot of that stuff here and there on this forum over the last 6 months. I understand there is a lot written on the boards and it's tough to remember it all however it does strike me that you tend to throw out/don't remember information when it doesn't fit your preconceived notions. This is NOT an insult. It's an invitation for you to ponder this idea and decide if it is true or not. It may not be. it really just might be that you don't remember the stories. I'm just curious that's ALL.

[fearless]

Fearless - Yeah and can you imagine how frustrated I felt to feel like I was driving him away with feelings I DIDN'T EVEN FEEL!! I drove myself crazy trying to show him who I really was but he couldn't see me;...

Cobra - Ummmm...correct me if I'm wrong, but does this sound just a teensy bit like fusion???

Not really. That's I think where it may be an issue with semantics that you and I have on some of these issues. Differentiation does NOT prevent a connection between people. I was VERY connected to my husband. As I told Cemar before I was a very supportive and compassionate wife to my XH. So yes I did not want to drive my husband away from me. That's NOT fused. That was being in love with my H and wanting to keep our marriage together. NOT because I HAD to be with him but because I had chosen to be with him.

Fusion would have been that I really FELT that I was who my XH portrayed me to be. If I was fused instead of differentiated, I would have sought out others to "make" me feel okay. Instead I KNEW I was okay and just felt I need to SHOW my XH who I really was. Fusion also would have been me being scared that I wasn't worthwhile because my H didn't want me and feeling that if he left, it would devastate me because I needed him so much. I didn't NEED him. I WANTED him.

And to be clear, I cannot say that I have never had fused reactions to my XH, family, friends, acquaintances, etc. Of course I have. I've had the reaction of "Hmmm. My friend hasn't returned my call. I wonder if they are angry with me." And then after I've thought or said this, I usually say "That's silly of course they are just busy." But I still have moments of fused behavior as most of us do. Awareness is the key IMHO.

I'm not saying and have never said that someone can be "perfectly" differentiated. You don't really NEED to be. Just like I don't know people that are completely fused either. I'm sure it's possible there may be mentally ill people that can fuse to the point where they have no feelings other than the feelings another person has and no sense of self other than what someone tells them they are but I doubt it's common.

I'm just talking about the goal of being able to look at yourself in the mirror or be alone with yourself and being able to know that no matter how imperfect and flawed I am, I am worthwhile and it's up to me to treat myself like I am worthwhile.