Cold differentiation, fusion and stuff.

[Kettricken]

I really don't see how listening to your wife talk on and on a bit about what she wants to talk about equates to "catering to or indulging" her.

Seems like the point of meetings someone's needs/wants is to meet *their* needs/wants .... if you are primarily interested in giving to them your choice of what you think they should want or what it feels most fulfilling to you to give .... that's still all about you, and in a selfish way.

I mean, I get that a man shouldn't spend all his time worried about placating his wife to the detriment of the rest of his life -- absolutely! I just don't see how it's any skin off your nose to listen more if she gets something out of it. It just sounds a little power-struggley (yeah, I know) to me.

Unless of course it's totally one-sided and she only wants to talk and not listen to/discuss what interests *you* (as I believe you may have implied above). In that case, the power-struggley part makes a lot more sense and the resentment is understandable.

But in that case I would perceive that as a Cobra/wife dynamic ... it has little to do with the masculine/feminine. IMHO.

[haphazard]

Cobra:

One of the reasons I don't talk to you much on this board (although I do respect you and find what you say interesting) is that you remind me too much of the way my brother argues. And having spent 40-someodd years arguing with my brother I have now learned not to bother. He does exactly what you do, he states position A then when someone challenges that he acts like he didn't say A he said a. Then when someone challenges that he says he didn't say a he said eh, then when someone still challenges that he says he didn't say eh he said ey. Etc, etc ad infinitum. Sometimes it's fun sometimes it's not.

Fran

[fearless]

Great Post Fran. I'm guessing that the desire to never be wrong comes from some sort of shame reflex. It wouldn't just be that your brother would feel wrong about whatever topic he was conversing on. I suspect that instead of feeling like "oops, I guess I am not completely right about this topic," he probably feels more like "Sh!t, I AM not right as a person." What a shame it must be to feel like you HAVE to be right to be a worthwhile person.

Also I LOVE your signature line. That's the power of self-validation - you can be drawn into people with no fear!!

[Corri]

In my own life... I listened quite attentively to my xH and his day. When he was talking about that... he was pretty talkative. When it came to listening to me, however... indifference, boredom... very short attention span.

So, if I had something important to say to him, I said it. I communicated. I did not connect.

Over the years, as the EC fell away, so did my willingness to listen, on end, about his day. My empathy, compassion and interest were pretty non-existent.

I don't think Cobra should listen to his wife endlessly. Right now, he doesn't have the inclination or the patience for it. That would be inauthentic.

As a man working on his M... he CAN give his wife a time limit (by saying to her, honestly... "I can only do active listening for so long, and I don't want to hurt you because I 'tune out.'), and he can give her further parameters to help her maximize the time she DOES have. But, Cobra, a man does this, first, so he does not HARM his woman. Therein, gifting her with his integrity and honesty.

No one is faulting you for losing patience or being uninterested. I don't have to be 'raptured' by the things my kids tell me. I give them the gift of my attention because it expresses my regard and love for them. And yes... I do give them a time limit. The know when it is... (dinner time)... and they SAVE what they really want to tell me... for then. They KNOW I will be listening and engaged with them.

Doesn't mean I don't talk to them at other times... or if I sense that they really need to talk... that I don't make that a priority...

Does all that GRAB my attention like my own interests, my own thoughts? No. Probably not. But I don't expect it to... my purpose is to respect and express my love to them through my full attention, awareness, and active listening. I love what I feel inside when they KNOW I am right there, with them, no matter WHAT they are saying.

This also occurs between a man and a woman. With my bf. I really sucked at it in my M. I have made it a point to learn how to do it better.

Corri

[Cobra]

Corri,

I think what I have been saying is exactly what you said. I do talk and listen to her, almost everyday, about what went on at her work. I will listen at times up to 30 minutes, depending on what she has to say. Sometimes it is only 5 minutes. IT is usually a one way conversation. I ask a few questions to show some interest, but it mostly bores the heck out of me. But I do it. So what exactly is everyone's beef about?


Kett,

Does your H like sports? Does he keep up with baseball stats, or college football rankings, or the PGA tour? What is his passion?

[LustForLife]

So to answer your question on why you should take off your feminist glasses - to better understand the needs of your H and help to make him happy.

The irony of course is that my own H probably wears those feminist glasses more than I do. So this is really not a male/female issue.
Regarding your 4 main points, I think my H was not happy that my primary purpose was the relationship. He wanted me to have my own primary purpose, career, interests, etc.
And I learned that I did as well. I am happier now than I was pre-separation.
So the problem I have with "the list" is that it puts women in a subjugated position. I know you will deny that but that is how I interpret your beliefs. When you show lack of interest for your W's purpose (which may be her work, not sure), you are disrespecting her as a woman and wife. Your interests are NOT superior to her interests. Why should they be? Because you are the man? It seems to me you will continue to have a problem with your M (building intimacy, etc) until you change your own glasses.

LFL

[MJontheMend]

I was trying to think of a happy marriage that I know of that would be an exception to the rule of Deida as, perhaps not entirely accurately, abridged by Cobra and actually the exception I came up with proved the "rule". A friend of mine from college (actually the woman with whom I had my one same-sex encounter) has a rather unconventional marriage. Her H is a musician and he cares for their two young daughters during the day while she works at a corporate job. She makes far more money than her H. Also, they engage in a very wide range of omni-sexual activities within their relationship (She goes full-out lioness on occasion.)However, I see her H as being masculine and I see her as being feminine. Her H more fully inhabits the identity of Musician more than she inhabits the identity of Corporate Shark. Acting in the role of Corporate Shark is something she enjoys but she does it to support her family, not because she wants to "be" that role. She inhabits and enjoys many other roles. OTOH, her H would be THE MUSICIAN in any other context. He loves and cares for their daughters but he doesn't take on the role of wife relative to my friend in the sense of the emotional vibe. He's just the kind of guy who is so masculine he could wear a skirt and the young girls would blush rather than giggle when they saw him. In the same way that she doesn't fully inhabit the role of "corporate shark", she doesn't fully inhabit the role of "lioness" just because she owns a strap-on. She's the kind of woman who you could easily imagine as the gentle heroine spooning gruel into the mouths of sick indigents in a Victorian novel. So, I guess my point is that I don't think that intelligent feminism would be in opposition to an intelligent interpretation of Deida. The other thought I had was that the reason I can't think of any happy marriages in which the partners had actually assumed opposite to the stereotypical gender polarity is that although I know some very omnisexual very HD women, I do not know any women who really want to inhabit the role of "top" (that's probably why women who are able to "act" it on demand make big money as professionals)

[fearless]

Okay, since you want to know about my marriage and how things disintegrated...

What I was going to guess is that he left you because you are much more highly differentiated than him.

A reasonable guess because it fits your concept of the issues with differentiation and it feeds your fear that if you become differentiated you will be left by the fused spouse.

However it is incorrect in my case. While it is/was true that I was more differentiated than my XH, NEITHER of us knew it through dating and the first 8+ years of our marriage. I began to suspect it after I found out about his affair and as I went through DBing. Around the 5th year of our marriage my XH started telling me and would have told you that I was the fused (although he did not have the word at that time it is what he meant)spouse who couldn't stand on her own. he started reading Seat of the Soul, the Dalai Lama, etc. and felt like he was miles ahead of me. I was the one who "wanted to do too much together," that I "did too much for him," that I "didn't have enough of a life on my own" and that wanted him to "do too much for me." He would ask me why I couldn't just "be happy." Which was puzzling since I thought I was happy. I thought I was confident about who I was. I didn't want to be joined at the hip with him. I liked having some separate activities and friends but I just felt that he was isolating himself away from me. At the time he pulled away from me he began bonding with a woman at work and began his first EA. It truly was only friendship but it was an intense friendship that excluded me. because I couldn't/wouldn't lead him in the direction he wanted (that elusive happiness), he looked to someone else to lead him and I think she found it flattering to lead him. When she married and moved away, he developed his next EA which unfortunately led to the PA. (No excuses for him because I told him that developing these close friendships with women was playing with fire.)

At this time he would demand that I make decisions but when I did he would fight me tooth and nail. I was either not LEADING enough OR LEADING in the WRONG direction, i.e. I was not "making" him happy. He would do things like ask me where I wanted to go for dinner. I like almost all food so sometimes I would say I don't care. Then he would get upset that I didn't have an opinion. SO I would name a restaurant and his first reaction would be "NO I don't want to go there" and usually my second choice wasn't right either. It was a crazy making time because I am someone who takes people's criticisms seriously until I have confirmation. And since I only had one husband I tended to dwell too long probably in trying to show him that I was really the person he wanted me to be.

As an analogy to how crazy feeling all of this was for me. Let's say your wife comes home and asks what you want for dinner. YOu say chinese food. She says No YOU don't want chinese food. So you say "well yes I do but obviously you must not so what do you want." Then she insists that it is YOU that doesn't really want chinese food and wants you to tell her what you really want. HOW do you argue with this?????? After all you sure as h@ll KNOW that you want chinese food, it's obvious she must not because she won't agree to it and yet she is making it about YOU. (this is not the best example because as a man you probably are more assured of yourself. As a woman I felt like somehow it must have been my fault and that I must not be communicating clearly enough or that I was somehow implying something with my mannerisms. SOMEHOW I should be able to FIX this problem on my own!)

My XH would do this all the time and within the last 2 years (since we've been separated) we figured out that he didn't believe much of what I said because he was an avoider and he just subconsciously treated me like one as well.

SO why did my XH think I was so needy, unvalidated and unsupported, fused, etc.? Well first the obvious is that he projected his issues onto me. The other was that while I have full support from my family we are also a volatile family in many ways. There wasn't a lot of positive validation for our actions and was there was negative validation when we did something wrong. My parents and grandparents from an early age critiqued and disagreed with is routinely. It was very common for us to hear that we had done something wrong. My grandmother (and RN and eventual teacher) would correct our thank you notes to her and critique our penmanship. My grandmother and grandfather complained of the way my mom kept house and of how dirty my brothers and I would sometimes be at the fair (when we were young!). I was a straight A student and National Merit scholar and NEVER received any reward or special kudos from my parents. (I was just doing what I should be doing in their minds.) My mom and I would argue vehemently about politics, etc. starting late in Junior High. I told raven of a story in high school where my mom was furious at me. I had gone to a teacher to get a grade I felt was unfair changed. My mom did not support me doing this and was furious when I did and the teacher changed the grade. She thought I was wrong in my actions. When I went to Europe at 16, I told her before I left that I would drink when I was there (of course I was a bit of a chicken because I did it over the phone!). She thought I was making a bad decision. Years later she admitted that while she was mad for awhile she did appreciate I TOLD her. In High School she would call me a b!tch at times.

All of this to say that NOT having constant validation for my actions was NOT an insignificant thing. By not getting validation for most of my actions AND then by feeling acceptance for myself as a person is what has given me an advantage.

In contrast my XH has a very kind and loving family. Certainly no one in his family has screamed the words "B!tch", "SOB", etc. at anyone. No one even HINTS of disagreement. There was/is constant positive validation and no negative validation. (When one of my brothers left his wife for another woman I was furious at his behavior. My XMIL was so uncomfortable to hear me critique my brother. I couldn't understand why at the time. It seemed obvious that his behavior was reprehensible) All of my XH's friends thought his family was perfect. My XH swore up and down that he also had total acceptance from his family for who he was. (They were our neighbors too!)

BUT my ILs are strong Methodists who do not drink or smoke. Yet my XH drank and dipped starting in HS. As far as he knows his parents don't know about it. When he and his best friend were fishing at my FIL's pond one day with a 6 pack of beer, my FIL walked up on them kind of quickly. My XH tried to throw a t-shirt over the beer but missed. Nothing was said then but a few days later my FIL said to my XH "I am really disappointed in YOUR FRIEND for bringing beer to the farm." AND my XH said NOTHING and let his friend take the blame. Now my XH was 23 at the time. Does anyone else see this as abnormal? If my XH was truly SURE of his parents acceptance, why was it so important to hide the fact that he had chosen to drink? He INSISTS it is to protect his parents and of course he would. Again I would wonder WHY it is so important to protect them if they can truly love and accept him for himself?

This is where I start to see getting your SELF-validation from others as possibly destructive because you see yourself as only being worthy if you can APPEAR perfect.

For me, I knew I was imperfect and that everyone in my family knew that and yet they still loved me. my mom and grandparents could argue and fight and still LOVE each other. We were all imperfect but acceptable people.

I'm afraid I have painted a much rosier picture of my family than it would have appeared at the time but I think that when you are in a great place as an adult it is easy to look back fondly without giving the edgy details. Another example is that my parents NEVER let us use others as an excuse. In my XH's example, even if a friend HAD been the one to bring the beer (and we were underage) and we hadn't drank it ourselves my parents would have expressed disappoint in US. The always said this "It doesn't matter what ANYONE else does. YOU are responsible."

I have no idea if this makes it clearer or muddier but my differentiation did not harm our marriage in the least. If I hadn't been as differentiated as I was, I doubt my XH would have even ASKED me to marry him. And I certainly don't think he could have handled me at all if I really had drawn my self-worth from him. Just THINKING I did drove him away.

And I will repeat as I consistently have, that I KNOW I am supremely lucky in the family that I have.

I could certainly go into more detail about them also. My dad is a self-validated and differentiated man. My mom struggled a bit with herself but I think my dad's differentiation was a great thing for her and them. She was very aware of her insecurities but was not someone who projected at all. So my mom although she was insecure was still confident in her insecurity because my dad could deal with it. After a long day milking and working in the field, he would sit down to dinner and be bombarded with her reading the paper aloud to him and discussing all of her issues with the latest political news. I know he wasn't interested but he still listened. It was important for her to feel listened to by him because it let her know he loved and cared for her.

ETA: AND that's probably why I am so sensitive to the idea of you listening to your wife. NOT because I think you should cater her or be responsible for her. Because I saw the loving way my dad "put up" with my mom's moods and how loved she felt because of his strength. I don't know why it makes you so angry to read my SUGGESTION of trying to listen to her more but my intention was never to insult you. I also wasn't asking you to be "sensitive" guy (my dad sure wasn't); I was asking you to be the rock she can depend on and trust. It seems different to me than what you have accused me of wanting you to do.

[Cobra]

LFL,

The irony of course is that my own H probably wears those feminist glasses more than I do.

Has it ever occurred to you that this might be one of his problems? If a man tries to live his life trying to placate a woman, focused on her needs, checking his actions so he does not step on her toes in any way or hurt her feelings, how is he going to be true to himself and his manhood. How can he be a man?

Regarding your 4 main points, I think my H was not happy that my primary purpose was the relationship. He wanted me to have my own primary purpose, career, interests, etc.

If he is a feminist, then this makes complete sense to me, because with you having your own career, you can release some of his worries over making you happy. Your career can serve to do some of that. Sounds like he may have been carrying a load around that lifted when you started working job?

So the problem I have with "the list" is that it puts women in a subjugated position.

Well, where have I heard that before….. let me think…. my wife??? Where did you get that message. Whose voice is saying that in your head?

I know you will deny that but that is how I interpret your beliefs.

No denial here. I absolutely believe you!

When you show lack of interest for your W's purpose (which may be her work, not sure), you are disrespecting her as a woman and wife.

I’m not sure what her purpose is and I’m not sure she knows either. Right now I see her in a learning phase, learning about herself and what it is she really wants. She still has a ways to go, but she has learned something about what she doesn’t want, and that is D (which is a big start).

Your interests are NOT superior to her interests. Why should they be?

Why do you think I said mine are superior to hers? My list does not say that. My list is a set of instructions for men, not women. Dieda is for men.

Her interests are primarily the kids, like most women. My kids are also part of my purpose, a big part. But I see my career as the means to serve my family. In fact, I don’t even see my career as a high priority for me. If I were single, I might choose instead to move to some island in the pacific and chunk this whole rat race.

I believe my wife sees her career differently. She sees it as a necessary means for survival. She is still motivated by fear that she could one day be without, as she was in her youth. Her job means survival. So I understand the importance of it to her.

She will never come to focus on the marriage as a higher priority than her career until she can calm her worries over survival. When she becomes comfortable looking into the future, then I think she might see that there are other things more important than career, other things that provide more security for her.

[Cobra]

Mojo,

I've actually known a few couples similar to what you describe and they too seem very happy. No way I could do that though... yuck!