Cold differentiation, fusion and stuff.

[fearless]

Goodness I hate to do this to y'all but again this is another long post!! I have some quotes directly from Deida in the middle if you want to skip down! I couldn't find any quotes that said a woman's purpose is the relationship but I didn't reread the whole book either.

Fearless - Then again I understand that some people don't want to lose weight, don't want to exercise, don't want to eat healthy, don't want to stop watching TV, don't want to be happier, etc.

Cobra - Do you really? Tell why you think this is?

I think people are scared of the work it will require. They are afraid they will not be able to do it and then they will feel even worse about themselves. Usually the bad habit is a coping mechanism for other issues in their lives so they would have to face their issues without their coping mechanism. It is very difficult to give up a coping mechanism. I have great empathy for people that are stuck in that situation.

First you said yesterday:
I've never met anyone who could truly stay unmeshed with an intimate partner. In everyday life this might be possible. But that isn't usually when differentiation is needed. During high stress everyone reacts.

Just turn up the heat enough and you can get almost anyone to fuse.

Then you retracted this morning and said this:

suppose I should have preface my comments to say that fusion comes with high enough heat in the absence of validation. You had a support system that was working. So you got through it.

So which is it? Are you now agreeing with me that it is possible to NOT fuse in intimate relationships?

Are you saying that maybe I am differentiated because I had a good support system? Then I will agree. I have wondered if my differentiation comes more from having parents and family that I have always felt are there for me. Of course they have not always agreed with me or validated me but they do always love me. And of that fact I acknowledge I am supremely fortunate.

Again I did NOT receive constant VALIDATION from my family. I received constant ACCEPTANCE. A significant difference, I think.

Also I believe that my differentiation is why I chose a man as a partner, who although he had/has his own issues, was not an uncaring selfish b@stard. If he had been a prick to me, then we would have broken up and certainly never married.

But what if it wasn't?

It was. So what is the real question? If you are asking if it is incredibly difficult for someone who has not received acceptance in life to learn to accept themselves for whom they are, I will ABSOLUTELY agree with you that it must be difficult. Again though, being difficult is not the same as being impossible.

What does it take to make Fearless angry, to become resentful?

I work very hard at not being resentful. Being resentful occurs when I am not true to myself. I do not like the feeling of resentment so I prevent it by acting authentically. An example of when I notice I feel resentful? Usually when I have done something inauthentic and when I get the feeling of resentment it is usually clear to see where I made a mistake.

Have you ever had to deal with this? Have you ever had deal with the sh*t hitting the fan without a support system behind you, or worse, a negative system that invalidates you?

No I have not HAD to deal with sh!t alone (although I have chosen to do so occasionally). Again I am very grateful for this fact. Now I did handle my first separation COMPLETELY on my own but that was my choice. If I had needed, my family and friends would have been there for me of that I am certain.

Or do you put in so much effort to be sure everyone around you understands you and is therefore at the ready to validate you when needed?

?? I do not look for others to validate me. I am actually very open to having disagreements. Rather I would state it as I put so much effort into validating myself so that I do not require others to validate me.

Do you go to lengths to preempt any possible future invalidation by relentlessly trying to smooth things over and keep the peace?

Nope.


Fearless -]Quite frankly I see enmeshment all the time in all sorts of low stress situations...

Cobra - Yes, what you describe in your everyday conversations is reality, that is real life. Wasn’t that part of my point?[/b]

I am not sure what you mean. MY POINT was that even in every day conversation and in minor relationships so many people give way too much control of their feelings to others. If they do this in every day life, I can imagine what they do when high stress situations arise and especially when they arise in an intimate relationship. While I understand that an intimate relationship ups the intensity of the feeling of fusion, I still see fusion happening at lower levels with those same type of people.

It might seem insignificant but there is huge POWER in stating "I feel upset when people cut in front of me" versus "people make me so upset by cutting in from of me." The first statement is me owning my feelings and the second is me being a victim to others actions.

To really understand what I am trying to say you need to read Dieda (have you done that?)

I have read Deida and I like his message to men. His message is for men to take care of themselves and not to look for their women to build them up. I fail to see how anything I have said is at odds with Deida's message. I have his book right in front of me.

Some of my favorite quotes:

Page 1) "He (the superior man) simply lives from his deepest core, fearlessly giving his gifts, feeling through the fleeting moment into the openness of existence, totally committed to magnifying love."

Page 51) "The most erotic moment for a woman is feeling you (the superior man) are Shiva, the divine masculine: unperturbable, totally loving, fully present and all-pervading. She cannot move you because you already are what you are, with or without you."
Page 52) "She is challenging you because your success doesn't mean sh!t to her, unless you are free and loving. And if you are free and loving, nothing she can do can collapse you. She wants to feel you are uncollapsable, so she pokes you in your weak spot."

Page 61) "The masculine grows by challenge, but the feminine grows by praise."

Page 62 )"It is a difficult practice for most men to learn, but you must learn to praise the very qualities you feel are not yet praiseworthy in order for them (women) to become so... Praise works. Information doesn't. Praise motivates. Challenge doesn't. Try it. Praise specific things you love about your woman 5 to 10 times today. Find out what happens."

Page 63) "A man gets resentful and frustrated with his woman when he is too afraid, weak or unskilled to penetrate her moods and tests into love. He wishes she was easier to deal with. But it is not entirely her fault that she is b!tchy and complaining. It is also a reflection of her lack of being penetrated by love."

Page 64 "One of the largest gifts you can give your woman is your capacity to open her heart when it is closed."

Page 67 "The amazing thing is this: 90% of a woman's emotional problems stem from feeling unloved." "More often your analysis and attempts to fix her will just piss her off more... It's so easy to give her love; it's what both of you want anyway. But as a man you are more likely to try to fix her. That's not what she wants, and exactly what will make the situation worse, most of the time."

I know this is hard for you to understand, so maybe Dieda will explain it best. What I get from your overall tone is that you feel men should really pay full attention to their wives, to keep them happy and content in exchange for engaged sex and EC and to keep resentment down and the bonding levels high.

I am not so sure that I do not understand it. I have never said it is up to a man to make his wife happy any more than I think it is up to a woman to make her husband happy. I was just challenging you to look at your wife from another angle. It seems clear that YOU do not like challenge. I really did not mean to insult you.

What I keep getting from you is that peace and harmony is the overriding objective (or maybe it’s part of the means to achieve full differentiation?) so each partner should focus on giving to keep this peace.

Wow, then I am being completely UNCLEAR. Peace and harmony are NOT my overriding objectives. They were my XH’s but not mine. Because a family member, spouse, close friend, work colleague, etc. does not agree with me DOES NOT mean that they do not value me. I do make it a point to surround myself with people that value me but by the same token I want people around me that will help me grow and improve and that means I need people that will call me on my sh!t.

Is this really serving the ideal of differentiation or indirectly avoiding potential confrontation and disagreement (which is what you seem to want to avoid)?

Okay I had to laugh!! If I wanted to avoid confrontation and disagreement, then why in the WORLD would I be "talking" to you??!!

Go read Dieda. The worst thing a man can do is to compromise himself, his purpose, his values, in order to please a woman. The man and his objectives come first. Then woman comes second, but in this way, the man can give the woman the maximum of what she really wants. Putting the woman first and the man’s objective second will actually diminish returns for the woman and make her unhappy.

Yes a man's purpose should stay number one. How does listening to your wife's problems put your purpose second and how does listening to her problems compromise you? Seriously again. The way I understood it is that listening to your wife annoyed and frustrated you. You did not say that listening to her distracted from your life's purpose.

I absolutely agree with the idea of staying true to your purpose. There is nothing sexier than knowing that your man is already fulfilled as a man and his interest in you is not to build up his masculinity because he already has it on his own.

IMO, you are still espousing a very feminist mantra, one in which you think men need to be in touch with a woman’s emotions, that the men should be focused on the woman’s feelings for in that way conflict can be minimized and both will feel validated, secure and able to stand in a differentiated mode.

Not sure where you get this. I have not stated that at all.

I feel that a part of your "message" has a subtle emasculation of men that sort of turns me off the more I think of it. Sorry, that's just how I feel.

???????????????

I'm also beginning to develop suspicions why your H left you.

Here's what my XH wrote to me last week on what would have been our 11th anniversary. Does it confirm why you suspect he left me?

So you know. Yes, I really did love you. I feel we had a good marriage until I screwed everything up. We had some amazing times and our every day life was pretty darn good. I was lucky to have you. But, I lost track of that because of all of my unresolved issues.

It was a good day today 11 years ago!