Cold differentiation, fusion and stuff.

[fearless]

(Warning - May be my longest post yet!! Consider yourselves warned )

Hey Cobra,

I'm not trying to "pick" on you. I just haven't quite figured out your POV and still don't know if our apparent difference of opinions is a true difference or is more of a semantics issue. Well I do know that our opinions differ I just wonder by how much.

What I find interesting is that I FEEL that the more direct questions I ask of you, the more confused I get about what you actually believe and more importantly WHY you believe it.

It seems to me that your disbelief in differentiation is a religious disbelief. It appears that you don't believe in differentiation because you haven't seen it, differentiation can't be sustained and everyone MUST become enmeshed when in stress. But if those are your reasons, those are not arguments but rather circular reasoning. TO BE CLEAR I understand that people may not want to be differentiated. Then again I understand that some people don't want to lose weight, don't want to exercise, don't want to eat healthy, don't want to stop watching TV, don't want to be happier, etc. However just because it's hard to do something and uncomfortable to change does not mean it's impossible to do it or impossible to change.

I've never met anyone who could truly stay unmeshed with an intimate partner. In everyday life this might be possible. But that isn't usually when differentiation is needed. During high stress everyone reacts.

In college my mom was diagnosed with a Brain Tumor on a Wednesday in early January, admitted to the hospital that Friday evening and scheduled for brain surgery on Sunday morning. I was starting a quarter of intense engineering courses (27 course hours, I dropped one 3 hour class from the original 30 hour schedule I had! ) My XH and I were seriously dating and living in the same apartment complex (for all intents and purposes we were living together but I believe having a separate apartment for me to retreat to was good for me.) He was in Law School. We were at a different school than where we met so no long-term friends were there for me. I took a bus to the city where my mom was in the hospital every weekend other than the weekend before finals. Then I went home for spring break where I spent the days visiting my mom and watching her try to learn to speak and walk again and watching my dad change her and care for her. Then home in the evenings to clean the house because my grandparents and great Aunt laid that at my feet (you ought to get that house in order) I would call exhausted and crying to XH. My mom went through another surgery 5 months later and then another 3 months later. She was in intensive care for over 20 weeks (which is A LOT if you don't know) and in the hospital for almost 9 months total. I also took engineering courses through Winter, spring, summer and fall.

YES I most certainly had HIGH STRESS and I DID react. But my reaction was NOT to enmesh/fuse with my XH. But how can that be? You have just stated that this is not possible??? Well maybe I am just super human freak but I highly doubt it! I have my own issues just like everyone has and I will constantly have to work on them. What I did do was talk to my XH and stay connected with him. But the fact is he was in Law School and he needed to stay on track with his classes. I needed him to take care of himself MORE than I needed him to take care of me. Just being there to talk to WAS enough.

Sorry, I don't buy this at all. I think you are referring more to everyday, low stress situation. During those times, almost everyone except the most extreme cases appears differentiated.

I'm not selling it to you. I know you are resistant to the idea of differentiation but this is a thread that others are reading and I want to give encouragement that it is possible and worthwhile to pursue this as a goal.

Quite frankly I see enmeshment all the time in all sorts of low stress situations. People are always saying in every day conversations "he makes me feel", "she didn't MAKE me happy", "my kids makes me so frustrated", "they didn't respond to me the way I want them to", "my friend has a new friend so she must not like me as much", " the boss doesn't pay me enough" (have you asked for more money? "Of course not! But they KNOW they don't pay me enough"), "that person in the hallway didn't say hi so they must be mad at me", using "I have to" statements all the time as if they have no control over their lives, ETC. I see is so often in just simple every day life. People who cede control of their feelings to EVERYONE else around them. Am I the only one that notices how many people to this????

Fearless - Do you mean that it is impossible to give to another person without any expectation FROM ANOTHER PERSON?

Cobra - For a certain period of time (that varies from person to person and situation to situation) I think it is easy to give without expecting something in return, especially when it concerns kids.

So it IS possible?? At first you said it wasn't possible at all but now it is for at least a "certain" amount of time??? Seriously.

But kids must be excluded from a discussion of intimate relationships. So in a marriage, if one person feels s/he is doing all the giving and getting nothing back in return. It is guaranteed that there will be a rise in resentment and anger. If you don't believe this, then ask everyone of this board.

Yeah I know and that's what I am trying to help. To break that paradigm of giving in order to receive ESPECIALLY when it's a covert contract on top of all of it. Try to give because that's "WHO YOU ARE." Give authentically and then you won't be so tied to the outcome.

I do not have any obligation to help her need for her excess talk. She can go to her girl friends for that.

What would you think if she went to a male colleague for her need for extra talk? What if she has a need to have a male figure listen to her and respect her? Why SHOULDN'T you be that male figure??

On your first post on this thread yesterday morning you stated:

"It comforts me to know that she has a need for me and that I can provide for that need (a la Dieda)."

and now last night you post:

"No, that is not what I said. I do not want to provide for her need. I want to provide for HER. I want her to in turn appreciate my providing for HER. I want to be appreciated as the provider, the "knight in shining armor." I want her appreciation of me to be as the princess. Her needs may be completely different."


I just want you to be aware that you reversed your original statement which leaves me a bit confused. Which do you actually MEAN?? Do you want to provide for HER need or to you want her to appreciate whatever you decide to provide for her?

I do listen to her about her work. I prefer not to, but I do.

My guess is that she is VERY aware that you prefer not to listen to her. The sentiment among men here is that they recognize if their wives are just "putting up" with sex and it is VERY disturbing to them. Why wouldn't your wife feel the same way about your lack of interest in what is important in your life? When you judge her interests and way of talking as harshly as you do, I imagine that she would feel that you see HER as annoying and unimportant and might not recognize that it's what she is talking about that annoys you.


Fearless - So it appears to me that you have a need to be needed in a way that you choose??

Cobra - What's wrong with that? It is my need, something I decide I want. Why would I want to be needed in a way I don't choose?

I am NOT saying there is anything "wrong" with that. I am just saying that recognizing that your wife may need you in ways that you find absurd, annoying, frustrating, pointless (she can go to her girlfriends for this), etc. could help you be the "knight in shining armor" to her. Is it more important for you to do whatever SHE NEEDS you to do to be a knight in shining armor to her or more important for you to do what YOU WANT to do for her??

For an analogy you seem like the prince who wants to slay the dragon to win the princess. So when you are asked to do something else for the princess, you argue and argue that you want to slay the dragon instead of doing what is required. Maybe there isn't even a dragon to slay... Yeah I know but that's the only thing you KNOW how to do. Those other tasks they are asking of you are beyond your area of expertise. It would be so much more convenient for them to ask of you what you know you can provide.