Nop knew this and was able to "capitalize" on it. It may not have been outright force, but that lingering emotional attachment can be VERY powerful.
If you have read their threads you would know that this is not what happened. He did not capitalize, he was fully involved and subject to all the emotions of going thru it. They both did the Hard Work. Cobra, I think/hope/know you have good intentions for 'fixing' your M, but the marriage is not the problem. You HAVE to work on you. No matter what your level of awareness you cannot fake your SO in a LTR. YOU are not that narcisstic, nor are you that manipulatively detached. Not by a long shot. Your SO will feel your intent. Its unavoidable. What you tell yourself after the fact to mitigate your pain is quite often differant. Thats why its obvious Strawberry Blonds x wasnt CNPD. I could take her posts apart paragraph by paragraph but she is D, isnt around, doesnt appear to want to see and so its not worth my time. If it makes her feel better thinking that then MPTH.
Mrs.NOP -HD has done an incredible job of trying to meet his wife's demands and expectations - imperfectly (as would any human), but he has agreed to and accepted her terms financially, with the housework, spiritually, in regards to childcare, all the way down to how to hang the towels.
Cobra -Yes, he has been more than understanding and helpful, more that I would have been.
This is not understanding and it is not helpful. Its enabling. This is not a criticism of HD, its informing you.
Mrs.NOP -That's a drowning man trying to grab a sniff of life before he goes back down under and into the riptide.
Cobra -When it feels like life or death to either party, then he fear escalates and the need to “control” increase. Add in denial and ego and you have the power struggle.
Sheesh. HD is not trying to control her. He doesnt WANT to have a power struggle. He doesnt Want to control her. He just wants to get along and treat each other nicely. She asks he gives. therefore, He asks she gives. he wishes.
OTOH, if MrsHD can feel some validation, some feeling that SHE is worthy and wanted to HD (even though I think HD tries to tell her this), she might have enough in the “love bank” to stick out the work needed to avoid D.
Assumning the best about her, I would guess, She doesnt want validation from telling. Words dont mean crap to a lawyer. They twist and tweak that all day every day. Maybe, She wants to use negative pushes and see him 'fight thru' so she can feel safe, because she is terrified, and wont admit it. If she wanted the M over, she would have told HD to get out. She didnt.
Cobra, sometime you get it. Your book understanding is so *bell ring*. I enjoy reading you oftentimes. and then the other times happen. Nobody is saying D. People are saying stand up for yourself, for R equitibility, and for your kids. Exactly what you did.
Then why is my marriage so much better than it was a year ago and well along the path to sustainability while your R is basically unchanged?
Because of how and the way you are implementing your thoughts. your behavior. If you could put away your beliefs on *should* and stop the verbals, and see what your actions are, and just did that, your and your W could really be loving each other. I hope for you still. but... like corri says...
There is a big differance between a passive man allowing bad behavior to become entrenched in his W, over the years, and looking like NPD, and a real Narcissus. I worked alongside a somatic Narcissius for 5 years. I only wish I was half that hard.
Cobra this is a general comment and not directed at you.
There were people here who thought NOP was 'brainwashing' and telling Choco to D. 1. Thats pretty demeaning to Choco. 2. Thats giving a lot of evil intent and power to Nop. 3. It shows a lot of ignorance of what is important to the Nops. Im glad Choc posted and reaffirmed, that was not the case. AT all.
Stop ascribing negative intent. Not only does it limit you, its ugly.
There were people here who thought NOP was 'brainwashing' and telling Choco to D. 1. Thats pretty demeaning to Choco. 2. Thats giving a lot of evil intent and power to Nop. 3. It shows a lot of ignorance of what is important to the Nops. Im glad Choc posted and reaffirmed, that was not the case. AT all.
Stop ascribing negative intent. Not only does it limit you, its ugly.
Man, I've gotta come out of my office more. I didn't even have any idea this thought was floating around, or I would have squelched it LONG ago.
That's a load o' horsekrap. If anything, there were many times when it was ME who wanted to throw in the towel, but NOP encouraged me, and he comes from a very "pro-marriage" orientation with his approach, applied with an admittedly "tough love" set of strategies and tactics. He realized that many of my wife's tendencies and attributes, if they could be applied positively, would HELP make a great wife, and a great marriage, that could actually be better than it had ever been. "Stubbornness" can be "steadfastness," and "industriousness" can be applied to working hard to keep an affair secret, or it can be applied to helping a family grow financially or otherwise.
NOP (and MrsNOP) helped me to stop feeling sorry for myself, and to start eating the sh!t sandwich that life had dealt me one bite at a time, and to attack my contributions to the unsavory meal as well. He not only PREDICTED, on this very board, that my wife's affair was going to happen if I didn't stop feeling sorry for myself and avoiding the problems in my marriage, but he never ONCE said "I told you so" when it did, in fact, happen. Instead, he patiently but firmly held up a "So What Are You Going to Do About It, Choc?" bar, and then helped me (and is still helping me) to hit it.
End of hijack; sorry, Hairdog. If anyone would care to respond, you may do so on my thread.
This statement was way over the top! You don't have any idea what's going on in my R, whether it's changed or not, whether it's better or not!
That statement was based on something you said a few weeks ago, something to the effect that you were getting tired of your R and needing to re-evaluate where it was headed. It sounded very much like you were ready to throw in the towel.
If it hit a nerve, then sorry.
BF,
If you have read their threads you would know that this is not what happened. He did not capitalize, he was fully involved and subject to all the emotions of going thru it.
I’ve read their threads (which are not that many and are rather succinct. The time period covered is also very short.) Nop may not have consciously decided to capitalize on the fact that MrsNop still had feelings for him, I don’t know, but his plan clearly centers on this. In fact, if ANYONE is going to work on a M, it is implicit that the other person must have feelings, otherwise the whole process of “going dark” or other tactics is pointless.
Your SO will feel your intent. Its unavoidable.
No, I do not think this is necessarily so. In many cases yes, but not always. No matter what I have said or done, my W would still hold a very skeptical and defensive view of the M. Even when I did everything I could to work on the M, she did not buy into it. That was a conscious decision on her part, one that she made based on her own perceptions of life. I know you believe that human emotions can overwhelm the intellect and especially for women, they will feel one thing even though they try to think another. Often I think this is true. But not always.
Thats why its obvious Strawberry Blonds x wasnt CNPD. I could take her posts apart paragraph by paragraph but she is D, isnt around, doesnt appear to want to see and so its not worth my time. If it makes her feel better thinking that then MPTH.
I have no idea what you are saying here or who this person is.
This is not understanding and it is not helpful. Its enabling. This is not a criticism of HD, its informing you.
Who are you talking about? Are you saying that I am enabling? If so, I don’t see how.
Sheesh. HD is not trying to control her. He doesnt WANT to have a power struggle. He doesnt Want to control her.
No, HD does not want to overtly control her, but he also wants stand his ground, which is ok. The way he does it is the problem. What I see in HD’s marriage is in part the maximizer/minimizer dynamic. MrsHD is the maximizer, making the big, loud, demonstrative actions. HD is the minimizer, trying to be politically correct, make the peace, keep up appearances. The maximizer is always the FIRST target in analyzing M problems. But what comes out later is that the minimizer is manipulating things behind the scenes, often unknowingly, to tilt power/control in his favor. The minimizer is a long way from being innocent. If you listen closely to what MrsHD is saying, you will see this.
He just wants to get along and treat each other nicely. She asks he gives. therefore, He asks she gives. he wishes.
So it would seem. Like I said, I do not think it is so cut and dried.
Assumning the best about her, I would guess, She doesnt want validation from telling. Words dont mean crap to a lawyer. They twist and tweak that all day every day.
I would not assume this because I am pretty sure that MrsHD does not know what she wants herself.
Maybe, She wants to use negative pushes and see him 'fight thru' so she can feel safe, because she is terrified, and wont admit it. If she wanted the M over, she would have told HD to get out. She didnt.
I agree with this. But her problem is that when she gets it, she can’t accept it, so she sabotages it. Then complains she isn’t getting it. Just leaving her to sort out these contradictory emotions may mean waiting forever. The marriage is on a limited time horizon IMO. Both parties can only endure so much for so long. She is not capable on her own of understanding her emotions. She needs some help, or she needs to see the contradictions within her to figure things out. HD can help in this.
Because of how and the way you are implementing your thoughts. your behavior. If you could put away your beliefs on *should* and stop the verbals, and see what your actions are, and just did that, your and your W could really be loving each other. I hope for you still.
Things in my M have generally been going pretty well over the past few months. A couple of weeks ago when school started, W started stressing out and getting nasty again. That is when we had the latest talk that I wrote about. In that talk I was finally able to get across to her appoint that I have been pressing for a long time, but only now was she either able to hear it or I was able to phrase it in a way that made sense.
That one realization has made a huge difference and I am surprise even today to see that things are still on a very even keel and moving along nicely. My behavior has nothing to do with this. My words, actions, attitude have not changed. She was able to see that she still held a filter over her eyes and understood how it affected her view of me.
It is very similar to what Corri has mentioned this past week in that she realizes she has put me in a particular “box” and has viewed all my comments from that particular bias. For some reason she has decided to remove that bias and now interprets me differently. Was that an emotional response on her part or an intellectual choice?
There is a big differance between a passive man allowing bad behavior to become entrenched in his W, over the years, and looking like NPD, and a real Narcissus. I worked alongside a somatic Narcissius for 5 years. I only wish I was half that hard.
I agree, and I think I said MrsHD is not NPD. Only a psychiatrist can make that diagnosis. But I think it is extremely important to understand the NPD personality when dealing with someone who has those tendencies or has been exposed to an NPD.
Wow...lots of stuff there about which I want to comment, but I guess some of you are waiting for an update.
We're back to Defcon level 1. What happened? I came home Friday and, when she got home, one of the first things I said to her was, "we have to talk."
Apparently, according to her, that statement, at that time, made all the difference to her. According to her, when I said that, she felt a 'rush of relief' accompanied by a feeling of hopefulness.
The talk had to wait until DD6 went to bed, but here's a summary: 1. I told her how I had perceived her comments about her client's slimeball husband, that I was being compared to a rapist, etc.
She clarified to me that the reason she had brought that up was to clue me in on why my grab had 'scared' her so much. She doesn't really think I'm capable of that, but what she had hoped for was that I would be more empathetic to her reaction and would have said something like, "I can see why that would have scared you, having had to deal with the client's situation". Instead, I got defensive and "flipped it" and made myself the victim of her "accusation."
I know someone is likely to go back in the threads and pull out a quote of mine regarding her equating my actions to a rapist, but I guess the point is, by the time we'd gotten to that part of the conversation, she was already reacting to my flip of the situation and -- yeah, I get the dysfuntion.
2. The financial/ college fund threat. She admitted that it was said out of anger, and apologized, and said this: At that point, you had already made yourself the victim, I was angry about that, and I wanted to hurt you. I brought up the college funds because I sometimes feel like you don't appreciate the fact that so much of MY money is going into that fund.
I explained a couple of things to her - how it could be taken as a threat against the kids, and how I indeed took it that way. I suggested that we re-configure the budget so that she doesn't have to think of that particular line item coming partially from her, and she said that it's not something that she resents -- until I seem to take it for granted. I said, "I have told you before, and I'll say it again, I appreciate your contributions, financially and otherwise, to this family. I'm concerned that this current structure of the budget is wrong, and that you expect me to be beholden to you because of it...that I should be a doormat, just because you see that budget item as coming out of your funds."
She denied this, once again said that she had said it out of anger, etc. Although we didn't resolve the nuts and bolts of the financial issue, I told her that I'd react the same way if she threatened it again, as if it was a threat to the kids, and that it would be in both our interest to figure out a way to handle it.
That was Friday night. Saturday was fairly uneventful, but Sunday, we went to church and, afterward, had a rare opportunity to spend about three hours together w/o DD6. We took a long walk.
During the walk we talked about the arguments during the week, about NMMNG, about the sexual moratorium, and about our marriage. She reiterated that, when I said on Friday that we needed to talk, and when I actually brought it up after she came downstairs from putting DD6 to bed, she was so relieved. "You have a pattern where you do something that you know is damaging to the relationship, then you just start acting like everything is fine and, when I don't act the same way you get all, 'look who's so grouchy today' and set me up as the bad guy. I was pleased that you wanted to talk about it, rather than ignore it."
One other thing she said, "I've said in the past that, if you died or we divorced, I wouldn't rush into another relationship. I want you to know that, even though I've said that, it doesn't mean that I'd prefer to go through life alone. I want you to be with me, always. We have our problems, but I'm glad we have each other, that we're together."
And, from her, that's about as mushy as it's going to get. And that's fine, for now.
Fantastic!!! See, under all that bluff and bluster she is really just a scared and hurt kid.
You have a pattern where you do something that you know is damaging to the relationship, then you just start acting like everything is fine and, when I don't act the same way you get all, 'look who's so grouchy today' and set me up as the bad guy.
Pay VERY close attention to this statement. She is saying a lot here and you need to own up to your part as the minimizer. Guilt is a huge driver for MrsHD. That means emotions, acceptance, respect, validation, all come into play with her. But she will never let you see it. You’re on a good path right now. Keep up the momentum and try to store up the love bank points. Keep up the communication. Things will turn bad sometime on the future so the better you can prepare now, the less damaging this will be later. She’s so damn much like my wife it isn’t funny!
It is very similar to what Corri has mentioned this past week in that she realizes she has put me in a particular “box” and has viewed all my comments from that particular bias. For some reason she has decided to remove that bias and now interprets me differently. Was that an emotional response on her part or an intellectual choice?
Is that rhetorical?
And just because I remove the box doesn't mean I agree or disagree with everything you say...
But along the 'box' vein... could it be that you have your own box you put Mrs. Cobra in?
But along the 'box' vein... could it be that you have your own box you put Mrs. Cobra in?
I would say that I had her in a box some time ago but tried to get her out of that box about a year or so ago, maybe even longer. The change for me came about with counseling, reading, posting on this board. Taking someone out of the box can involve a certain amount of faith, IMO.
For my wife, seeing me in a different way really meant giving me the benefit of the doubt which meant lowering her defenses, which meant she had to risk being attacked. That is why I think it was so hard for her to do this. Her past precluded her from doing so. She knew no other way. From what I could tell, that is how she seemed to think everyone went about life. Everything is suspect. When I did something particularly nice, instead of feeling gratitude or relief, her suspicions and stress levels actually increased.
It does not make sense. It took me a long time to figure this out and try not to react to it. That was my part. Her part was to stop trying to create a self fulfilling prophecy.
ETA Is that rhetorical?
Rhetorical, but I'd like to hear your answer anyway.
I'm glad you took the lead on that, and that it had such a positive result for you!
Keep up the good (and hard) work. As much as Rs can spiral downward, one failure feeding upon another, so too can they spiral UPWARD again. Each time you set a boundary -- and then enforce it -- not only does your W have to react to that (and I think we all feel that she will respond positively), but perhaps even more importantly YOU feel so much better about YOURSELF.
That then strengthens you to face courageously the NEXT boundary that needs to be defended, and so on, and so forth. Lather. Rinse. Repeat.
Thanks for the update... I was wondering about you... I am cautiously optimistic... waiting to hear how YOU felt things went, and what it all means to you... when you have time.
I want you to be with me, always. We have our problems, but I'm glad we have each other, that we're together."
This is wonderful. I am glad she is realizing ( and verbalizing) this. It's where relationship success starts from, the desire to move forward together, after weighing the options. Now the task is to move toward health and happiness. For two lawyers, you both have crappy communications styles with each other, but your talk yesterday showed that you're getting there!
