There are degrees of narcissism and even though someone may act narcissistic does not mean they are a narcissist. MrsHD might be a hopeless case, but I don't think she is. She might never be "normal" but I do think she can move along way toward lowering her defenses.
lil,
No one can change anyone else's behavior. If anyone on this bb has proved that, hairdog has.
Sorry, but I don't see how HD has proven that at all. No offense HD. I also don't believe your supposition that you cannot change other people. If that were true, how do you account for the Nops?
They don't have to D. he can go about his business, live his life while they are under the same roof.
In other words, do nothing. For a spouse who prefers to live in a cave, going about your own business and leaving the spouse alone is doing nothing. Do you think that's really going to change the M?
HD does need to keep up his show of strength, he does need to set and hold fast to his boundaries. Then he needs to show her the empathy that she asks for in every single exchange that have. She does not ask for it directly, but she does so every single time she exclaims how selfish HD is. It just beats the hell out of me why you people can't hear that.
If for no other reason, it is at least worth a try as it would be a complete 180 to the power struggle they have been going through.
Meh, I don't think Ms hairdog is a narcissist. Nor is she bipolar. She may have bipolar tendencies, but so do I. In fact, so do most high-strung and intelligent women. Which may or may not be an endorsement. *s* If you've seen a couple of people with true manic depression it's like comparing someone prone to hypoglycemia with full-blown diabetes mellitus. She's simply a strong personality who got her own way once too often early in the marriage. If hairdog had *pushed* back hard at her first pushes, he'd be either divorced long ago or in his dream marriage. He'll find out which it would have been, if he continues his course.
Do write Nopkins, hairdog, if you haven't already. He seems to have a good grasp on boundaries while not escalating the situation more than necessary. Calm, non-inflammatory, firm, but kind boundaries, and you'll learn all you ever wanted to know about Ms hairdog. She may surprise you.
Sorry, but I don't see how HD has proven that at all. No offense HD. I also don't believe your supposition that you cannot change other people. If that were true, how do you account for the Nops?
You cannot change other people, unless you want to abuse and force them into something they would rather not do. This certainly happens in abuse cases, where the "changing other people" is a result of emotionally, verbally or physically abusing them.
NOP did not change me. I changed me.
NOP changed his own behaviors and attitudes.
I saw his efforts and changes and I made the choice to change me.
Once I changed my behaviors and attitude, NOP saw my changes and he then changed his own behaviors and attitudes some more. This was not a linear process, more closely related to a roller coaster process. But working on ourselves, while expressing our needs to the other - not demanding, not forcing - has resulted in the change in our marriage.
At no point in our relationship did either of us, by great effort of will, change the other person.
You can reason. You can communicate. You can withdraw. You can engage. You can appeal. You can change your responses. You can change your behaviors. You can change your attitudes. You can change what you are and are not willing to do. You can change your life. You can change your schedule. You can change your participation. If you were a rock, you can become like water. If you were like water, you can become a rock. If you were subservient, you can become assertive. If you were assertive, you can become less assertive.
But, you will note that all of these changes are about *you*.
As you change, your spouse will change in response to the new imbalance in the relationship. But, you cannot control how they will change. They may change and become a more compatible spouse, or they may change and go for divorce.
You cannot control which choice they make.
I don't know why that seems so hard for you to grasp. Your wife could leave you tomorrow. You can make that choice less appealing to her by fighting for custody, dragging your feet during the process, being uncooperative within your legal rights - but you cannot merely impose your will upon her and force her to change.
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If for no other reason, it is at least worth a try as it would be a complete 180 to the power struggle they have been going through.
HD has done an incredible job of trying to meet his wife's demands and expectations - imperfectly (as would any human), but he has agreed to and accepted her terms financially, with the housework, spiritually, in regards to childcare, all the way down to how to hang the towels. How controlling is she? He was chastized for picking up his daughter from the church childcare without her permission. He has continued to want a sexual relationship with his wife and has been guilty of unsolicited midnight boob-grabbing. HDa culpa.
That he struggles somewhat on occasion to get his head above the water long enough to pull in a lungful of air does not = power struggle.
That's a drowning man trying to grab a sniff of life before he goes back down under and into the riptide.
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HD does need to keep up his show of strength, he does need to set and hold fast to his boundaries.
Which is all that anyone has actually said he should do.
That some pointed out that his wife's behaviors are outside the pale of normalcy - that some have said (for the dog & bone analogizers) "that dog is behaving dangerously, you need to guard yourself" doesn't mean that opinion is based upon lack of empathy.
I can empathize with a dog who is suffering from rabies or bad training - but that doesn't mean that my empathy must blind me against realizing that the dog is a threat to my life and wellbeing and that I should give creedance to its growls and bites.
Lil: No one can change anyone else's behavior. If anyone on this bb has proved that, hairdog has.
Cobra: Sorry, but I don't see how HD has proven that at all. No offense HD. I also don't believe your supposition that you cannot change other people.
Of course, ditto what Mrs. NOP said (speaking from HER OWN personal experience.... cobra, you seem to think you know what happened in the NOP's R better than they do!).
That notwithstanding, you CANNOT change anyone else's behavior. You can apply pressure, you can threaten, you can ask, you can beg, you can manipulate-- you can use any tactics, methods, strategies, mental, emotional, or physical... but the other person has to DECIDE to change and then act. OR they can choose to do what they want anyway.
Mrs. choc is a good example. Are you saying that choc "changed" her? He did what he did and she made the choice and she seems to be changing. Choc did not change her. She changed herself.
Mojo's H did not change. Mojo left-- she applied the same pressure as choc-- but Mr. Mojo went his own way.
Even if you put a gun to my head, I can still choose to defy you and let you shoot me. No one can make anyone else do anything.
Some people will respond to asking, pressure, threats, or whatever, especially if you dig down and find a soft (or hot) spot. But some people simply will not.
What you're saying is similar to the idea that "everyone has their price." The assumption is that if the reward is high enough, monetary or otherwise, any person will do anything for the right/high enough reward. I don't believe that. Not everyone can be bought, and not everyone can be pressured into changing.
The ones who DO change are doing so because they see some reason to or some value in it (or to avoid something negative), but they have to do the changing themselves. The other person cannot do it for them.
We've gone round and round on this many times, and you're just off base on this one.
cobra, you seem to think you know what happened in the NOP's R better than they do!).
Thank you for reiterating this Lil. Cobra, it is worth exploring (I think) why you operate with such (false) confidence when you simply do not have enough information to go on. I see you doing this all the time. You just did it on Chrome's thread with me. Shouldn't the two people involved know more about the particulars than you? You just don't know the reality. Don't act like you do. And as for being able to change people, you are so off base. But I'm not surprised you believe this because it gives you a sense of power/control, doesn't it? You just don't have that power Cobra and the sooner you realize that I think the better off you will be.
As for HD, only he can figure out what level of dysfunction HE is willing to accept and stop trying to change MrsHD. My H did that (albeit in a f-ed up way) but the result ended up being that same. He made the choice and I followed suit with my own choices. And yes, it could have gone either way for a while. But he in no way controlled my decisions. Why is this so hard for you to understand?
I saw his efforts and changes and I made the choice to change me.
Exactly. Which is how he changed you. He had a choice. He could
1) Not work on himself and continue to struggle in his life with you. 2) Not work on himself and work toward starting a new life on his own, without you. 3) Work on himself and work toward starting a new life on his own, without you. 4) Work on himself and work toward starting a new life on his own, with you.
He chose to work on himself. Then he chose to stay with you. Those two choices do not force you to do anything, but they do significantly change the attractiveness of one path over another. Your whole choice set changes. Had he chosen option 1), you would have seen your options completely differently. In this way he had considerable influence over you, not to the point of force, but to the point that he did have a say in his own destiny.
I think the only time this breaks down is when the other person does not have any feelings left for you. In that case the above 4 paths look no different than if it were Joe Blow down the street making those changes. There must be lingering emotional connection in order for the 4 choices to have different attractiveness. Nop knew this and was able to “capitalize” on it. It may not have been outright force, but that lingering emotional attachment can be VERY powerful.
HD has done an incredible job of trying to meet his wife's demands and expectations - imperfectly (as would any human), but he has agreed to and accepted her terms financially, with the housework, spiritually, in regards to childcare, all the way down to how to hang the towels.
Yes, he has been more than understanding and helpful, more that I would have been.
How controlling is she? He was chastized for picking up his daughter from the church childcare without her permission. He has continued to want a sexual relationship with his wife and has been guilty of unsolicited midnight boob-grabbing. HDa culpa.
Agreed as far as her actions are concerned, but I do not agree with the controlling part. I have completely reversed my thing on controlling people as my relationship has evolved with my wife. Except in rare cases, I no think prefer to think that anyone is “controlling.” Control is a form of self soothing, a reaction to a fear, nothing more than a complex knew jerk reaction.
That he struggles somewhat on occasion to get his head above the water long enough to pull in a lungful of air does not = power struggle.
That's a drowning man trying to grab a sniff of life before he goes back down under and into the riptide.
When it feels like life or death to either party, then he fear escalates and the need to “control” increase. Add in denial and ego and you have the power struggle.
That some pointed out that his wife's behaviors are outside the pale of normalcy - that some have said (for the dog & bone analogizers) "that dog is behaving dangerously, you need to guard yourself" doesn't mean that opinion is based upon lack of empathy.
Again, I agree. But what I think is lacking in HD’s sitch is the empathy. I know HE feels it and I suspect SHE feels it, but neither is able to express those feeling in a language the other can hear or in a way that gets past the defense. She will they might not really be in a power struggle, each thinks there is a power struggle.
I can empathize with a dog who is suffering from rabies or bad training - but that doesn't mean that my empathy must blind me against realizing that the dog is a threat to my life and wellbeing and that I should give creedance to its growls and bites.
Agreed and if the bite becomes real then resorting to a very strong action like D may be necessary. I think doing so could help HD’s marriage. But it might cement her anger and only result in a permanent D. Right now the emotional connection is too low to overcome such a drastic action.
OTOH, if MrsHD can feel some validation, some feeling that SHE is worthy and wanted to HD (even though I think HD tries to tell her this), she might have enough in the “love bank” to stick out the work needed to avoid D.
I see this as no different from disciplining a traumatized, hurt and angry child. There must be boundaries and a show of strength to lay a foundation for respect. But there needs to be an explicit show of empathy and compassion to build that respect. This is the part that was hard for me because I too was so angry. I wanted the empathy to come to me, not from me. I guarantee MrsHD wants the same. So this one last ingredient is what I would add to the four options I outlined above.
MrsNop, even though you had some level of emotional connection to Nop, his choosing option 4 may not have been enough had he not shown some amount of compassion toward you, right? You needed something to break down your walls and the only thing I know of t hat can do that is compassion, not boundaries or respect. All the ingredients must be in place. None can be missing.
That notwithstanding, you CANNOT change anyone else's behavior. You can apply pressure, you can threaten, you can ask, you can beg, you can manipulate-- you can use any tactics, methods, strategies, mental, emotional, or physical... but the other person has to DECIDE to change and then act. OR they can choose to do what they want anyway.
You left out one other option, you can so eliminate the attractiveness of the negative paths that only the positive paths remain. You can’t make the other person choose any one of those particular remaining paths (or even a negative path), but if you can accept any of the positive paths, then that may be good enough.
Mrs. choc is a good example. Are you saying that choc "changed" her? He did what he did and she made the choice and she seems to be changing. Choc did not change her. She changed herself.
Choc did not directly change her, but his actions limited her choices, boxed her into a corner, and took away some actions so that she had few options left. The most attractive one was for her to come back. Choc could have made other choices, such as staying distant, paying for her bills, letting see the other man. Those actions would have resulted in a different outcome. Would he have “forced” this? You say no, I say yes, because in the absence of anything different in MrsChoc, those tow paths that Choc could have chosen would have resulted in different action in her. And I think those actions and reactions would have been repeatable.
Mojo's H did not change. Mojo left-- she applied the same pressure as choc-- but Mr. Mojo went his own way.
Of course. Mojo’s ex is not MrsChoc and Mojo is not Choc. There is no one size fits all formula. Each marriage needs different responses. IMO, the whole reason for anyone to spend any time at all on this board is to figure out exactly what kind of mix exists in thier marriage and what mix of responses will get the desired outcome.
What you're saying is similar to the idea that "everyone has their price."
Basically, everyone does, except for a true narcissist or border-line, etc.
The ones who DO change are doing so because they see some reason to or some value in it (or to avoid something negative), but they have to do the changing themselves. The other person cannot do it for them.
Bingo!!! The italicized parts are what YOU can affect. “The other person makes the choice, buy YOU present the choices, good and bad, to him/her.
We've gone round and round on this many times, and you're just off base on this one.
Then why is my marriage so much better than it was a year ago and well along the path to sustainability while your R is basically unchanged?
Even if you put a gun to my head, I can still choose to defy you and let you shoot me.
Which is actually the best way not to get shot.
That might be one way to avoid getting shot, but how do you think the other person feels knowing that you defy him/her? Putting a gun to someone’s head is a power play and defying that gun is a counter power play.
It could be that the other person doesn’t have any bullets in the gun and only wants to sooth him/herself by making the threat, or has no real intention of pulling the trigger. So another response might be to simply say “I love you, I choose to stay with you, I will not fight you and if you shoot me you will hurt me, but then there will be consequences. So for now, you are free to shoot me.”
Remember that there needs to be some emotional connection, but the very fact that the other person put the gun to your head indicates that connection does in fact exist. So while it may seem like suicide to make the statement I just described, it is actually quite safe. But it does take faith, and that is a whole other discussion.
Yes! That is my ONLY point: that you cannot directly change someone else.
What you're saying is that if you limit or control the other person's choices (by adding, removing, changing them) you can indirectly control what the other person chooses, right?
Like this analogy: I have a jar of different colored jelly beans. I want you to choose only the red ones. I know you hate the green ones and wouldn't choose them anyway. So I take out all the jelly beans and only leave the red and green ones. Naturally you choose the red ones.
But you can also choose not to eat any jelly beans and walk away.
So I remove even the green ones from the jar, and then I go out and find lots of different kinds of red ones-- peppermint, cinnamon, cherry-- knowing that you will not be able to resist a jar full of only RED jelly beans.
By limiting your choices, or offering you ONLY choices I know will appeal to you, I am controlling your options, but I am still not making the choice for you. YOU are still the one doing the choosing... in a sense you are making the choice to choose at all. NOT choosing-- not playing along-- is still a real choice.
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Then why is my marriage so much better than it was a year ago and well along the path to sustainability while your R is basically unchanged?
was way over the top! You don't have any idea what's going on in my R, whether it's changed or not, whether it's better or not! Where on earth do you find the arrogance to make such a statement? Again, you're acting like you know something about a situation that you know next to nothing about! You're making inferences based on old, sketchy information, and you have no idea what the current situation is.
