I stand by what I said. I never said MrsHD, nor any other person with a bipolar type of problem is a normal person who plays by normal rules. But I do know one thing… MrsHD is not stupid and crossing the line from mental/emotional over to physical is something she does understand quite well. So you might say that if she understands this, and she is intelligent, why would she resort to such unethical tactics? I’ll explain below.
But letting the fire rage unabated until she runs out of fuel .... no, no, no. All other considerations aside, what kind of an example of adult behavior will *that* set?
Who said anything about letting the fire rage? The fire cannot rage unabated without fuel from HD. A narcissist NEEDS someone else to draw into the fray. What purpose do you the idea of narcissistic supply serves? What I don’t think you understand is that with some people the fire cannot be “put out.” Trying to do so only fans the flames. Believe me, I know first hand. Tell me this, how exactly would you propose “putting out the fire?”
Are you *seriously* advocating "validating" someone by allowing them to treat you with total disrespect? What kind of f*cked up message does that send?
Yep, that is exactly what I propose. It is not intended to send any message. There is no message to be sent. Any messages that may get out are jumbled and confused any way. Everything is a contradiction. There is only raw emotion, no intellect whatsoever.
Now remember that I think MrsHD does know there is a line between emotional and physical abuse, so beyond that boundary line she can control her actions. But within the boundary she does not recognize any other authority, and as long as she does not go too far, all is fair game.
Whoever above advocated "I will not allow you to speak to me/insult me that way" and "There is no place in our relationship for that kind of statement" is on the right track, IMHO.
Yeah, this is on the right track, but what do you suggest when she gets in HD’s face and says to him exactly what he says he will not tolerate? What then? She will call his bluff immediately. Now he has to decide whether to enforce that boundary. So he leaves. Guess what that will do? It will p*ss her off. She might change the locks, grab the money, who knows what. It will be an escalation. I think it is possible to make a narcissist back down but I think you need to take it so far to the extreme that the action can be self destructive. Best not to go there.
Lil,
You're saying that hairdog can validate his wife by allowing her to wreak vengeance on him until she "gets her fill"?
What propels a narcissist? It is a need to be accepted while trying to cover up whatever faults may exist. There is no one harder on a narcissist that him/herself. When I say HD should let her know that she did in fact hurt him, all I am saying is to do his part to drop the veil of her self delusion. She is angry and wants to project onto HD. So once she thinks she has accomplished this, where is she going to vent her anger? How is she going to keep the projection going? If HD denies that he is hurt, then she has justification to keep going, she has an enemy to fight, for he is not validating her. Take away the enemy and what will she do?
Don’t confuse this approach with a boundary. A boundary feels like a counter attack to a narcissist. The harder you hold to the boundary, the more they feel you are counterattacking, so the more they keep attacking. I think this all has to do with validation because a narcissist is basically insecure. Control itself is really not the issue. The need to control is a consequence of the need for validation. Yeah, its fcked up. I know. If they weren’t fcked up they would be narcissistic, right?
LFL,
I understand him wanting to "logic" his way into putting up with the behaviors of his own W but come on.
Actually, I think you guys are the ones who are trying to “logic” this. You keep saying her actions are insane and she SHOULD be acting some other way. I say this is who she is and how she acts. Plan accordingly.
And frakly Cobra, the behavior of your W AND of you seem wrong to me. I understand the lack of love but what about respect. How can you have a R/M without it?
How can you have respect when you are struggling to hold on to survival? Respect comes a little further down the hierarchy of needs. Once fear has been abated and some security established, then respect can begin.
Personally I think this whole affair with MrsHD is very interesting for us on this board. I know a lot of you have criticized me in the past for being insensitive, uncaring, non-empathic. As I look at all the comments over the past few days bashing MrsHD, I find a lack of understanding and compassion is notably absent. Only Corri seems to get it.
MrsHD is an extreme case and I hope none of you ever have to deal with someone like her. But if you can learn to put yourself into her shoes and understand what makes her tick, what makes her angry, what makes her scared, then I think each of you will have gained a valuable tool for working on your marriage and understanding your spouse. I hope your spouse is not this extreme, so if you can understand MrsHD, then you can understand anyone.
I find it ironic that after all the crap I have taken from everyone about my “lack of empathy” that I am the one preaching to you all to be more understanding. Funny how things work out, isn’t it?
From what I remember, your bf's mother sounds like she shares some of MrsHD's traits. What say you try to get some respect out of her? What do you think your chances are of that? When she gets into one of her moods, all bets are off, right? When she's like that, what do you think you can do? Don't tell me you will just walk away and leave her alone because to make this exercise relevant to HD's sitch, you can't do that. You are stuck in the "relationship" and have to find a way to make it work.
What do you recommend that will not be "catering to her, coddling her, and playing by her rules?" How do you propose rattling her cage that will make an impact sufficient to change her behavior and bring the two of you closer? Just telling her that you will not tolerate her poor behavior is not sufficient because she will call your bluff. Then what will you do to back it up? Remember, you can't just walk away and abandon the relationship. Filing for D is not the answer either because HD has not decided to go down that road yet. What do you suggest?
How do you propose rattling her [my bf's mom's] cage that will make an impact sufficient change her behavior bring the two of you closer?
I have no desire to become closer to her. To put it it cobra-speak: "where did you get the idea I wanted to be closer to her?" Our relationship is just fine the way it is.
No one can change anyone else's behavior. If anyone on this bb has proved that, hairdog has. They don't have to D. he can go about his business, live his life while they are under the same roof. He probably won't, because he's a type 6 and Loyalty is their strongest trait. But he could. He could just start pleasing himself and devil take the hindmost.
And do you attack the dog's character in the process, or do you accept the dog for the dog, and do what needs to be done?
well said. I deal with the dog how the dog needs. Regardless of the teeth and growls. For the safety of everyone who lives with the dog and the harmony of the house. I dont treat it like a child, and I dont treat it like a horse.
As I look at all the comments over the past few days bashing MrsHD, I find a lack of understanding and compassion is notably absent. Only Corri seems to get it.
While I don't think I was stressing empathy toward Mrs. HD, I also don't think I bashed her AT ALL. I just pointed out that her fears and feelings feel real to her even if they are crazy to all of us. Honestly I have no idea what to make of her because so much information about her that you all have is from before my time on this forum. To me it seems that if she truly believes that a man touching his wife in bed is wrong, then she must have some screwed up issues that need to be solved by a professional.
I just don't see how Hdog can "fix" her on his own (without her help AND professional help) whether he is kind, nurturing and empathetic or whether he calls her on her sh!t, takes a tough stance and pushes her. That's the trap I think it would help him to get out of. he cannot Nice Guy her into normal sexual behavior anymore than he can force her into it. What he can do is remove his self worth from from how she reacts. (From my own example about a fear of heights. Just because Raven can't get me to do something I am afraid of DOES NOT reflect on how much I love him, trust him and care for him. It reflects on something WITHIN ME. If he makes it about himself, it will only stress me out MORE and make me MORE uncomfortable. Does that make sense?)
What I think Hdog CAN do is to control himself better and not get caught in her issues and get manipulated by her. To avoid being manipulated he needs to feel stronger about himself. I am not even sure she's manipulating consciously or purposely. I just think she is attacking when she feels attacked and because Hdog is unsure of himself he is an easy target. Again I think it is craziness to think that your H cannot touch your breast or rub himself up to his wife in bed whether he or she are asleep or awake. I also don't believe that she is making up the fact that she DOES find it demeaning, insulting and uncomfortable for herself. It's not Hdog's fault that she feels this way and I don't think he needs to feel it's his fault. And that is where I think she is inappropriately pushing the blame onto him (and why wouldn't she do this? Why would you want to feel that YOU are the messed up one? Much better to push the fault onto someone else.) That's why I think his way of addressing it is going to need to be with some professional help.
IF he decides that looking up a Sex Therapist is the way to go, I would stress to her that this issue is that he wants to ML to her because he LOVES AND RESPECTS her and he feels that if she doesn't feel that ML conveys those feelings then THEY need help from someone outside. He does NOT (granted I am assuming :)) want to make her feel uncomfortable or like a two-bit whore when they ML. He wants her to feel loved, respected, cherished and desired by her H. So obviously if she does get those feelings then something is wrong BETWEEN them. Yes of course it's easy for all of us to see it probably is mostly her issue but in reality because they are married and her feelings are getting in between them, in the end it is THEIR issue and should be solved that way.
Again my opinion is NOT that Hdog should pander to her or give in to her but it's also not that he can control her or fix her and letting go of that feeling should be empowering to him. And I really do believe that he is lacking in that feeling of empowerment. And IMO I don't think "not giving a sh!t" is true empowerment. it just feels better than caring too much but in reality it's just a the flip side of giving too much power to her.
Again for a personal example. With Raven I obviously care a lot about him. Yet there are times when I have to do things that are best for me but might not be what he wants (and vice versa!) Of course I don't "not give a sh!t" what he thinks and yet I still do what I need to do for myself. Because I care for him and yet still hold my ground, BOTH of us are ultimately OKAY. IF I had to "not give a sh!t" about him in order to do what I need to, I don't think I would be strong at all. I think I would be doing that because I was too weak to accept the fact that sometimes you have to disappoint people in order to take care of yourself. And if you are strong, you can show your feelings of caring while you do what you need to do. I've done this with my parents, family members, friends, work, etc. and typically even when I do things that let others "down" everyone seems to be able to "forgive" me and move on.
FWIW. Again I am more about solutions rather than being right. I don't really care whether Ms Hdog is "wrong"; I care more about making their marriage whole given that Ms Hdog is Hdog's choice for a wife and the mother of their child.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
Well, a true narcissist, for the most part, does not change...very hard to treat, even by a professional. They are who they are...and the decision is how to live with them...IMO, the only thing one can ever really do is learn to not be manipulated and be able to withstand almost on a daily basis this kind of behavior. When they feel someone slipping away, they do what they have to to reel them back in. And narcissists almost ALWAYS choose someone who is an easy target and who will put up with them. I would think that a professional would have to really help someone like HD to live the way he is if he wants to stay. Personally, I don't know enough about her to know that she is one...you all know much more than I do. But my ex-bf's ex-w was the worst case I have ever in my life seen, and I did a good bit of reading on it. Very hard to treat...they only think how a situation affects them...not that they don't have the ability to care, but bottom line is they have to have the upper hand at all times.
Z-Bube, one of our past posters, determined that his W was a narcissist, and being 100% against divorce, just decided to put up with her the way she is. He sought a lot of professional help, if I recall, and the professional(s) confirmed what moretocome said.
If that's truly what Mrs HD is, apparently there is no changing her.
They have an extraordinary need to "win". Great for being a good lawyer, but not so great for a spouse...LOL.
Just a note off HD's story, but my ex did get married to another woman...his ex-w, the classic narcassist, called his soon to be wife the day before they were getting married and told her that if she wanted him back, all she had to do was say so and she could get him back. Unbelievable...in her mind, that was her way of winning.
I would like to say that Mrs. HD will change, but I suppose that remains to be seen. My sister in law is a clinical psycologist and said that this personality is the hardest to treat. They almost never see, or refuse to see, their role in the demise of their relationship.
