Tucson or Bust, part 3

[MJontheMend]

Two avoiders together is a recipe for failure.

I didn't say he should become a deliberate brutal avoider, I said he should move in that direction. The reason he should move in that direction is that he will gain insight into his own dysfunction and MsHD's. I tend towards being a clingy pursuer but I've learned how to self-protectively flip into brutal avoider at will in a self-aware fashion. I've also learned "so what?" The insight I want HD to gain is that although from the perspective of the clingy pursuer it seems like the brutal avoider has the "power" in the relationship that is a complete illusion. If we use sex as the issue, the fact is the LD spouse has no more ability to make you desirable than you have to make them desire you. To give an over-the-top example, there is nothing I can do to make myself want to date a guy I don't know who sends me an e-mail in which he addresses me as "Angel Eyes". However, I think the knee-jerk reaction which is to make yourself more attractive by becoming a brutal avoider yourself is entirely lame but I don't think you can transcend that until you see that it is possible. I don't agree with you that letting some fusion seep back in is the solution. Fusion is never good. I will use you as an example. You think that you are staying in your marriage for the sake of the kids. You are wrong. If you were really staying in your marriage for the sake of the kids you wouldn't give a flying fig whether your wife was nice to you or wanted to have sex with you. Let's say I told you that I would give each of your kids a million dollars and the key to eternal happiness if you came and lived with me as my fake husband and behaved in a civil and celibate fashion for the next 10 years. Would you take my offer?

I don’t understand this. If I understand “deliberate” to be more self assertive, not nice guy, to enforce boundaries but in a very compassionate manner, then I’m with you. But I think that is exactly what she does want subconsciously.

I also think sexuality will be off the table for some time. The important thing is to stabilize the marriage so that the hard work can begin. Sexuality will destabilize things.

Sexuality always destabilizes things. That's what I'm saying. MsHd unconsciously wants to have sex with a man as brutal as her father. She wants the Plathian boot. If she can gain some self-awareness about this then she can transcend it and convert the need into a want that can be achieved through play. Obviously, HD isn't a brutal character but he may have to play one to get through to MsHD.

Hmmm…. I would be very surprised to see MrsHD acting in any sort of clingy pursuant behavior.

I would be very surprised if she didn't if HD did as I suggest. Were you surprised that my 2bx kept hitting on me sexually after he found out I was dating other men?

I disagree with the underlying assumption here that HD and MrsHD are at different levels of differentiation. I think they are both at exactly the same level.

I agree that they are at the same level currently. I was talking about what might happen if HD does become more differentiated.