If HD seriously feared a rape charge... all you have to do is consider for a few moments the scenario, and anyone can see that if Mrs. HD really took it to filing charges... SHE is the one who would... have mud in her face. It is SO preposterous that I think it can ONLY been seen as a zinger, and not for one second to be taken seriously.
I don't think that this is a safe assumption to make. Mrs. HD is a divorce attorney. Charges of marital rape are taken very seriously in the judicial system.
And in a generic response:
I don't view her as a cruel monster. I don't think HD should threaten divorce. I am not advocating that he go off in some over-the-top-emotional response to her. I am not quietly gathering a rope for a lynching.
I do believe she will act cruel and abusive in an effort to "win". I believe this because she has done so repeatedly. And from all accounts, HD fails to ever address her behavior.
You don't use children (in ANY fashion, IMO) to score points in a flipping spat. I just see this as more significant than some folks seem to do.
IMO, it doesn't matter *what* the reason is for her actions and behaviors in that it is the actions and behaviors that must be addressed. Knowing "why" can be helpful in feeling empathetic and understanding, but (to use an extreme ex.) I don't care if a mother beats her children because she was abused as a child, or because she is mentally ill, or because she has an alcoholic husband, or because she's under a mountain of stress - beating the children must be stopped. The "why" can be dealt with later.
She is accustomed to her preferences to be inviolate. HD is accustomed to not having any boundaries.
It is not acceptable in a marriage to use whatever sharp emotional object you might have nearby in your arsenal.
IMO, he is culpable for his part in allowing this to go on as long as he has. When does HD stop tolerating his wife's behaviors?
That's up to HD. For me, you don't toss my children into your pathetic little tiff without a getting a strong boundary in return. Not fury, not rage, not threats, not yelling and screaming - I never advocated that.
Are we thinking that people are really unable to express to their spouse "I am angry about this" without being fully in control of their emotions?
I’m having a hard time understanding what you’re saying. I agree with this part:
1) Fully recognize that he is dysfunctioning as a random clingy pursuer. 2) Fully recognize that MsHD is dysfunctioning as a deliberate brutal avoider.
I have doubts about this part:
3)With full self-awareness purposefully change his behaviors from those of a random, clingy pursuer in the direction of becoming a deliberate brutal avoider.
Two avoiders together is a recipe for failure.
DELIBERATELY give her the power that she thinks she wants.
I think this is also self defeating. He has given her too much power already. But what she wants is not really power at all. She wants soothing and validation. She relates power to soothing and that connection is a big part of the problem. Part of HD’s task is to offer her soothing without turning over power. That’s going to be tough to do, but HD’s nice guy actions have done just the opposite for all these years.
4) Recognize that if he acts more deliberate without acting more brutal he will be giving MsHD exactly what she thinks she wants and not meeting her unconscious needs. The relationship may stabilize but it will be nonsexual or MsHD may continue to push to have her unconscious need for brutality met by becoming more and more deliberate and brutal herself.
I don’t understand this. If I understand “deliberate” to be more self assertive, not nice guy, to enforce boundaries but in a very compassionate manner, then I’m with you. But I think that is exactly what she does want subconsciously.
I also think sexuality will be off the table for some time. The important thing is to stabilize the marriage so that the hard work can begin. Sexuality will destabilize things.
5) Recognize that by behaving in a more deliberate and brutal manner he may "cause" MsHD to react by yo-yoing into clingy pursuant behavior and he may find this behavior quite unattractive.
Hmmm…. I would be very surprised to see MrsHD acting in any sort of clingy pursuant behavior.
6) Gain awareness that brutal avoidant behavior can be viewed as unattractive rather than attractive behavior by the person who tends towards clingy pursuit if one recognizes it as being just as attention-seeking as clingy pursuit (child sulking in room and/or throwing tantrum vs. child clinging to legs and/or crying)
Huh? Who are you talking about here?
8) Recognize that it is incredibly difficult to maintain a relationship with somebody at a different level of differentiation and I don't think it can be maintained in the long run. Even in the short run it requires almost super-human self-awareness not to break one way or the other.
I disagree with the underlying assumption here that HD and MrsHD are at different levels of differentiation. I think they are both at exactly the same level.
Lil said I had a friend who was in the animal rescue business. She saw plenty of disgusting cruelty committed on innocent creatures. After a while her default condition was to assume that everyone is an animal abuser (even me and her family) until proven otherwise.
Subject 1 Hairdog, I see Lil's post as having some validity. Your W does some nasty D cases and they are influencing her thoughts. When BB worked as the med nurse when the hospitals had a co-dependency treatment program, I saw changes in BB and to BB more men became controlling selfish jerks.
We never locked the front screen door during the day and left the front door wide open (1969 to 1991) before I started working in the group home and BB started working in the Psych center.
We both saw some violent people at each of our jobs so decided to keep the front door closed and some times locked during the day.
It took 3 years of not working at those places, but now we are back to leaving the front door open (screen door closed) some days.
Work issues do rub off into some people’s personal lives. I sense that happening in your M.
Subject 2: If you announced a sexual moratorium, what is with the boob touching? I know biology (mine any way) influences me to think about boob touching, but a sexual moratorium includes dropping all sexual contact in my mind.
I sort of had a sexual moratorium going before I read NMMNG and quit giving BB foot and back rubs to boot, for over a month. Occasionally I put my arm around BB or she touched my foot when we were in bed, but for the most part I dropped the touchy-feely part of our R.
Subject 3 sexfiend/rapist? JK. (Lou at confession but I am not Catholic) I have sinned. I gave BB a back/foot/hair/leg/arm rub and touched her boobs 6 times again last night, second night in a row. What must I do to redeam myself father?
Am I am a bad person? Do I need to attend Sex addicts anonymous (SA}? JK
If what you did makes you a sex addict, I am a lost cause; shoot me!
Lou: 1. You might have a point. Her job does involve dealing with some crap. 2. I brought up the moratorium AFTER the boob grab. I suppose in my half-asleep, half-drunk, always-horny state, I was hoping for one last gasp. 3. Go and sin no more.]
And MrsNop: You have depressed me and now I feel like sh!t. Thanks for that. I'll accept your words as the gift they were intended to be, and will probably call upon them someday soon when I am hesitating to speak up and make waves.
I didn't say he should become a deliberate brutal avoider, I said he should move in that direction. The reason he should move in that direction is that he will gain insight into his own dysfunction and MsHD's. I tend towards being a clingy pursuer but I've learned how to self-protectively flip into brutal avoider at will in a self-aware fashion. I've also learned "so what?" The insight I want HD to gain is that although from the perspective of the clingy pursuer it seems like the brutal avoider has the "power" in the relationship that is a complete illusion. If we use sex as the issue, the fact is the LD spouse has no more ability to make you desirable than you have to make them desire you. To give an over-the-top example, there is nothing I can do to make myself want to date a guy I don't know who sends me an e-mail in which he addresses me as "Angel Eyes". However, I think the knee-jerk reaction which is to make yourself more attractive by becoming a brutal avoider yourself is entirely lame but I don't think you can transcend that until you see that it is possible. I don't agree with you that letting some fusion seep back in is the solution. Fusion is never good. I will use you as an example. You think that you are staying in your marriage for the sake of the kids. You are wrong. If you were really staying in your marriage for the sake of the kids you wouldn't give a flying fig whether your wife was nice to you or wanted to have sex with you. Let's say I told you that I would give each of your kids a million dollars and the key to eternal happiness if you came and lived with me as my fake husband and behaved in a civil and celibate fashion for the next 10 years. Would you take my offer?
Quote:
I don’t understand this. If I understand “deliberate” to be more self assertive, not nice guy, to enforce boundaries but in a very compassionate manner, then I’m with you. But I think that is exactly what she does want subconsciously.
I also think sexuality will be off the table for some time. The important thing is to stabilize the marriage so that the hard work can begin. Sexuality will destabilize things.
Sexuality always destabilizes things. That's what I'm saying. MsHd unconsciously wants to have sex with a man as brutal as her father. She wants the Plathian boot. If she can gain some self-awareness about this then she can transcend it and convert the need into a want that can be achieved through play. Obviously, HD isn't a brutal character but he may have to play one to get through to MsHD.
Quote:
Hmmm…. I would be very surprised to see MrsHD acting in any sort of clingy pursuant behavior.
I would be very surprised if she didn't if HD did as I suggest. Were you surprised that my 2bx kept hitting on me sexually after he found out I was dating other men?
Quote:
I disagree with the underlying assumption here that HD and MrsHD are at different levels of differentiation. I think they are both at exactly the same level.
I agree that they are at the same level currently. I was talking about what might happen if HD does become more differentiated.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Answer 1. On a gravel bed deposited as a result of the Yellowstone's flow not too far from an area where mud/dust was deposited over several thousand/millions of year and formed layered sedimentary rocks to form and 75 miles from where bryophytes grew that resulted in a coalbed. http://www.amazon.com/Roadside-Geology-Montana/dp/0878422021
