For the record, I was in no way advocated that HD threaten to D his W over this, just that he needs to deal with it in a swift and sure way so that she understands that such things are never to be done. What that swift and sure was is, is for him to decide.
Other people's comments on the matter did not influece my position, although my own heightened emotionality about children probably did.
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
With all due respect, you didn't think it (filing for divorce) was the way to go in my sitch either. Now in hindsight it appears as if you're saying that -- based on Mrs. Choc's sitch -- it made sense, but it doesn't for Mrs. Hairdog.
I'm not advocating a lynching, and I don't see anyone else here doing so either. I think what we ARE saying is, that until you are willing to firmly enforce a boundary, HD, your wife won't respect you, and until she does and the relationship is in more equilibrium, you are not in a position to "meet her needs."
Draw the boundary, then enforce it, calling her on her B.S. You don't have to "threaten divorce" to do that. I do think you should move out of the marital bed, however, as I don't think it's healthy for you or even wise to sleep in the same bed with a woman who's threatened you with rape before, and seems like she's still thinking that way. A boundary laid and enforced ("I will not tolerate your using my children as a pawn in your disagreements with me"), and a "180" executed with a move out of the marital bed, would, in my humble opinion, be a good starting point.
Well... I suppose this is going back to why I am so very fond and intrigued by EQ and emotional management. To me, just from my own experience, it is IMPOSSIBLE to BE emotional and THINK rationally at the same time. The emotions here, just on this board, are starting to run high.
I'm not criticizing anyone for it, either.
There is nothing wrong with BEING emotional (though society has really done a negative spin on that concept, huh?).
"Your being emotional (with sneer in voice)."
I used to cringe when I heard that... and stuff, stuff, stuff went the emotions.
And emotions may not go 'away' so quickly. They may calm down over a day or two or three. But they may also escalate quickly, and that is usually because whatever is triggering them has not be addressed.
My point only. Mrs. HD is giving HD a lot of information through her actions and reactions. I think he should listen so he can make some rational decisions, once HIS emotions have calmed down.
HD is a smart puppy, guys. All this wasn't created overnight, and it isn't going to get better overnight. He knows what he needs to do...
I agree that the college fund thibg was not a threat toward the kids. I just saw it as an easy hot button issue to hit to show that she is p*ssed. It worked. I don't want to lynch her but I am significantly concerned about her mental health. I think that she has no idea how blessed she is to have HD because a lot of men would have long since ceased to care. She is an intiguing person and is surely capable of being a wonderful marriage partner if she gets out of her own way.
1) Fully recognize that he is dysfunctioning as a random clingy pursuer. 2) Fully recognize that MsHD is dysfunctioning as a deliberate brutal avoider. 3)With full self-awareness purposefully change his behaviors from those of a random, clingy pursuer in the direction of becoming a deliberate brutal avoider. 4) Recognize that if he acts more deliberate without acting more brutal he will be giving MsHD exactly what she thinks she wants and not meeting her unconscious needs. The relationship may stabilize but it will be nonsexual or MsHD may continue to push to have her unconscious need for brutality met by becoming more and more deliberate and brutal herself. 5) Recognize that by behaving in a more deliberate and brutal manner he may "cause" MsHD to react by yo-yoing into clingy pursuant behavior and he may find this behavior quite unattractive. 6) Gain awareness that brutal avoidant behavior can be viewed as unattractive rather than attractive behavior by the person who tends towards clingy pursuit if one recognizes it as being just as attention-seeking as clingy pursuit (child sulking in room and/or throwing tantrum vs. child clinging to legs and/or crying)The self-aware differentiated adult or parent should know the proper response to these types of behaviors. Reactive anger, fear, rescuing, abandoning are all obviously inappropriate. 7) Do not take or misinterpret any advice that would seem to suggest that brutal, avoidant behavior is "better" than clingy pursuant behavior or vice versa. If the soup is too sweet, it can help to throw in some salt but it's better to just spice it carefully from the beginning. 8) Recognize that it is incredibly difficult to maintain a relationship with somebody at a different level of differentiation and I don't think it can be maintained in the long run. Even in the short run it requires almost super-human self-awareness not to break one way or the other.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
FWIW here are Hdog's own words to describe Ms. Hdog's relationship with his kids. I don't think she is a cruel monster who is using the children. I think she is a woman under obviously high stress with serious emotional issues who simply used the kids COLLEGE FUND (and not the kids themselves) as a way to lash out at Hdog.
Early on, the kids truly seemed to embrace W. As they grew older, a combination of their mother's anti-MsHdog diatribes (which they shared with me) and my W's personal brand of "tough love" (intolerance for messes, many household rules, criticism) and later, some actions they perceived as preferential towards DD5, strained the relationship. To her credit, W tried many times to be inclusive/loving toward them, but she often felt betrayed by their habit of telling their mom everything that was going on at my house, and hearing it somehow regurgitated negatively by my ex to W over the phone, or over a phone message, or via email.
I tried to foster the relationship, to smooth things over between all involved (trying to be the peacemaker), but it's gotten more and more difficult over the years. It's not an openly-hostile relationship. It's just that some "family dinner nights" are cooler than others. Sometimes, my older son lets slip a negative opinion of W, my younger son lies to her about something and never hears the end of it (where does he get THAT from?), or DD11 parrots something she heard from her mother. It's wearing. For a parent, like me, it's just part of parenting, and it's become old hat for me to ignore the messages I perceive coming from exW, and deal with what's real. It's harder for W. Still, if she were able to take things less personally, as she did earlier in the relationship, it would be easier for everyone.
...One area in particular is the "telling mom what goes on over here" issue. I have told the kids many times, quite clearly, that, unless something is going on at my house that is dangerous, risky, etc., their mother has no business knowing it. They "get it", but continue to tell ex things she has no business knowing. (E.g., that W went to a Buddhist retreat, that me and W were arguing loudly, that W spent money on DD5 but doesn't take them shopping anymore). W tells me that sometimes she feels like she has a house full of "spies" and that she can't relax when they are there. I agree. I lecture. I lay down the law. They follow it for awhile, then they don't. Part of the blame is that their mother is likely cross-examining them.
My point about being a peacemaker was less about soothing ruffled feathers and more about being the "mediator" between the two "camps." Although she may have had issues with me in this regard in the past (that I wasn't advocating her position strongly enough), I don't think that's a big problem today. I was just trying to explain how and why she didn't follow through on "list item" about her being a "loving role model" for the kids.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
3)With full self-awareness purposefully change his behaviors from those of a random, clingy pursuer in the direction of becoming a deliberate brutal avoider. 4) Recognize that if he acts more deliberate without acting more brutal he will be giving MsHD exactly what she thinks she wants and not meeting her unconscious needs. The relationship may stabilize but it will be nonsexual or MsHD may continue to push to have her unconscious need for brutality met by becoming more and more deliberate and brutal herself.
Two questions: 1. How would a deliberate brutal avoider handle the boob grab sitch, and the college fund sitch. 2. Where do you come up with this stuff?
I think that she has no idea how blessed she is to have HD because a lot of men would have long since ceased to care.
Well...maybe. But I don't really see it that way. As Mojo was saying about the brutal avoider and clingy pursuer. Neither one is better than the other. HD is just as responsible for this mess as MrsHD is. That is why I did not feel people were lynching, but just stating she is wrong in that behavior. And I am also saying HD is wrong in his behavior. He knows he is a "nice guy" and that is not a positive connotation. It comes off a person with zero boundaries and thus weak and to be disrespected. Sorry to be so harsh HD but that is how I see it.
