[always_14]

Lissie - I will write the ghost story chapter. Enuff said.

Snoddery - THANK YOU. For a while now, I wanted to ask you, without being rude, about your situation and how you are now. You are one that we all admire on the boards, and I don't recall much of your situation from the past (not that you want to relive that!), but it's a wonderful example of how some of them truly never do, or take a very long time, to come out. So it puts a new perspective on the waiting. And, it's wonderful to hear about YOU and how you are in life.....that you found peace b/c living with your xh would not have been right or productive.

I'm not sure if I can comment much here, as I (and all others rightly so) feel that my H's case is more than MLC. But I can comment on some general trends.

There are always elements of the stages.....but waiting on events is nearly always ineffective....in most cases, not all. Again, my H is not really just MLC, but...I can see similar patterns here. The "hitting bottom" that we all eagerly seek in every move is so elusive, and we just don't really know when it happens. I remember thinking so many explosive consequences would surely be the "bottom" for my H, but they never were. He fell, got depressed, angry, but kept on going with his destructive path. He is still is. In the face of losing his reputation, his support, no stable home, being isolated, hanging with a totally different crowd, he still does not hit the bottom. And, I don't know if he ever will.

As far as childhood issues....I have always thought this certainly plays a role. The combination of insecurity, neglect and abuse. My H's father was explosive in temper, and physically abusive when they were young....very angry and distant as they grew up and did a 180 after they both were out of college. It took H coming unglued with his father and yelling for hours to change things and have his father go to therapy. Now he is the sweetest man. His mother, in a bad marriage, instead of turning to nurture the kids and pull them away from it, chose to distance. She was disengaged with the kids emotionally, would spend hours on the phone each night if she were home, cold and not nurturing, would try to get out of the house as much as possible and had EAs with another man. All actions that little boys would see.

As a result, my BIL went in one extreme direction in life...he chose to convert to become Mormon (nothing ill about Mormons, but he did this in a peculiar time and manner, almost in a way of running away from family background), and is very distanced from his family. He is very traditional, and the ultra family man, almost shedding entirely his family. He rejected them for some time while he recreated himself, absorbing himself into his W's family and values.

My H did something similar. By the time we were M, he had reconciled with his family, and I thought this was something extraordinarily healthy and thus did not see his childhood as a red flag. But I do know that he was very attracted to my family, community and culture. Speaking of masks, he put one on. He immersed himself into my family and culture, which at the time felt like he was an incredible fit for me and a loving gesture. He adored the persona he was in that capacity....he loved being the good SIL, the good guy, the good H, the good BIL, and he loved how much everyone adored him. He was so clean cut, respected, honored values, and was so sincere and giving. He spoke/acted from genuine feelings from his core. It was the GOOD mask, and I truly think he loved it.

But, somewhere, the other masks came on and now he is not someone I recognize at all. Not just toward me, but I don't recall him ever being risky (he hated taking big risk), no financial security, no stable and comfortable home, sordid friends (who he would not associated with before), loss of reputation, and possibly loss of career. Completely deluded and no sense of perception or insight.

IMP - It's good for us to look at the childhood issues, and try to understand what might have happened. But, like you, I have a HARD time accepting it...but my childhood was great, and I am blessed with a wonderful family. My parents always used shame and guilt as good tools of reprimand, but it was always leveraged from the point that they expected more of us, because we could do more and could be more, we were worthy of more. I see so many kids all over the world who see horrific incidents of war, see parents and family members die, who live in poverty and suffer awful things. You hear so many stories of POWS and others survive and thrive as healthy humans. What happened here? I will always stick with the fact that there are a few core differences between people who grow healthy from awful circumstances and others who will suffer later at their own hands in destruction. I even read an article on this about a study done on Vietnam POWS.....and how they dealt with life afterwards and how their lives ended up. Some came out healthy after help, and others suffered greatly. The article stated that the core differences were that people who healed and grew healthy: 1) had an inclination to see the positive side of life - positivity 2) strong spiritual background 3) feelings of charity and giving 4) strong inner core and tolerance.

So, I can see these things making a huge difference. I can think of my H's childhood and say "but you had clothes, you had a warm home, food, and an education, you became a Dr...college was your birthright, and so was freedom." But, when I really look at it, and the factors above, I see things a little differently.

For example...I watched 'Lost Boys of Sudan'.....thousands of little boys running across their country, as orphans, parents lost and being shot at. They were raised in refugee camps and came to the US. They made it. No meltdowns or crisis that we see here. Certainly a FAR cry from my H's childhood. BUT.....these boys were raised with strong religion and spirituality, both from tradition and churches. They knew their community songs, and spoke all the languages. This tradition was their comfort in a foreign land in hard times. They were brothers, who saved each other. They were family with unconditional love....in the refugee camps, they were loved by everyone in the makeshift community, they were expected to go to America and succeed and send money and honor their country and family and uphold values. They were taught to always be grateful, never be the victim (how could they, they were the ultimate victim already), be happy with little and work hard, to push forward with a clear positive vision. So you see these young boys, who knew no English, thrown into a forgein country, little $ or sustained help, and it never really crossed their mind "WTF....I am 16, and I am here, and I am not gonna make it....let me do drugs." They had all the things I listed above.....and I can see how in my H's upbringing, while more affluent, was not nearly as rich in those core points.

So, IMP....even if you suffered worst in your childhood...I could bet that you could go back and point to having those core points....strong person inside, positive outlook (and I know you did, bc you really pulled yourself up in career and housing during your D with strength), giving mind, and sense of values.

I think this is where the difference lies in most of these spouses....whether they can come out as incredible people like a flash, or not.