I'll give you a little more insight into my xh's life. His mother had one son already and got pregnant w/the second son (xh) soon thereafter. My xh was born 4 mths premature--the boys are exactly 11 months apart. Both my mil and my xh almost died during the delivery. Once they came home, xh was given to a couple to raise until my mil was back on her feet. My mil, stated many times over the years that my xh was suppose to have been a girl. She had the name Sandra Jean already picked out for the baby. She admitted to leave this child in the crib with filthy diapers on and laughed about him doing things w/the filth, like wiping it all over the walls. The father was drunk most of the time or running women or running from the bill collectors. The first born was the apple of my mil's eye. My xh could never be up on the pedestal w/the older brother. Holidays weren't very special and when he got older and wanted to go out on Friday night, the mil would whine about being home alone, thus my xh stayed home w/her. Of course, the first born could never do anything wrong and was allowed to run the streets, etc. Till the day she died, he was her apple. My xh was always called on to help her fix things, run errands, etc., never once praised for what he had accomplished. He really did try to rise above the environment he was raised in, but when his step-father and father died within 8 months of each other, it was too much for him and he spiraled down into the pit he's sitting in right now.
One other interesting tidbit, while my xh was a child, his mother was placed in a mental institution, not once but several times for electroshock treatments. When she would return home, she'd not remember much about the boys and other things in her life. Till the day she died, she couldn't stand conflict, so if the boys would have a heated discussion in her presence, she would throw up hands, stomp her feet and scream she couldn't take the arguing. Talk about not being able to express yourself. My xh was always the one that had to do for his mother and that even meant not saying what was on his mind---until mlc set in. When it did, he let her have it a number of times and I would get the calls with her crying, etc. I couldn't believe the turnaround in the xh, but "Etna" was starting to spew and I knew something was terribly wrong, but didn't know what.
As for smiling, every photo that was taken, the smile was a smirk and it appears to be a forced one. I can honestly say that I've never heard him laugh really hard, not even a chuckle. I never knew what he was thinking because he was unreadable.
Yes, BA, I was always waiting to see what the next new toy would be and how much it would cost. The toys got more expensive and outlandish as time went by. Nothing worked for him.
As for the OP, well...she's a lot like his mother and, in fact, she looks quite a bit like her. I've met her and she comes across as a very cold one and had a very "hard" look about her. I don't know whether she's making him happy or not, but it's obvious from all of the calls I get throughout the day at home and work, that something isn't quite right there, but it's no longer my problem, except I would really love for him to find someone else to spy on.
I can only wish him the best and hope that he finds that "gold" ring he's been searching all of his life for. Me, I'm happy w/what I've accomplished and I don't need to go out here and but the biggest or brightest new thing on the market. I'm content w/what I have and with who I am and I think this applies to all of us here as well.
Oh Snodderly, he is 'back with his mother' with this op. Where he was 'comfortable'. He didn't know how to be loved....he had never been loved before. I'm sorry, because I am sure that you loved him very much. He didn't know how to accept your love. It was something so foreign.
Mickey, I have to agree w/you. He was not a very "loving" person, but I accepted him for who he was and tried to be there for him all of the time. I gave and gave and never asked for anything in return because I knew his well was empty. My family and I attempted to make his life better for him, but in the end, it wasn't what he needed. He once said to me "who needs money"? I can go back and live the way I did in the early 70's. That's living in the barracks with only two nickels to rub together.
The first and only time I saw his OP, I about died. She looked like his mother, i.e., short, dark hair and even wore clothes like she would. Her mannerisms were the same too. I knew then that something was terribly wrong.
He's a very sad case, but I do wish him well and I am very glad he's with her and not me!
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
My husband was the fourth boy, followed very quickly by the only girl. He was pretty much given short shrift. Was raised by the older boys because all of his mother's attention went to the girl. They were not wealthy, mother stayed at home, and father worked at the post office. Small house, only one bathroom. To conserve resources, bath water was shared. Guess who got to bathe fourth? Ick.
It was never any mystery to me why he was so obsessed about having his own bath while we were married...
His father treated them like a pack and he was expected to carry the same weight as older brothers. His father had an explosive temper, a manifestation of his frustration at the passive agressive manipulation of my MIL who was angry about her plight in life. She really wanted to be a single business woman and not carry out the expected role for a Catholic woman in those days, wife and mother of a huge family. She made her resentment pretty well known apparently and nothing my FIL could do satisfied her. Instead of standing up to her, he took it out on the boys.
Assigned them the task once of cleaning out the shed. My husband was about 4. No one was telling him what to do or supervising him so he was just mimmicking his brothers, carrying stuff out from the shed and tossing it into the fire his father had going. When he tossed in a bucket that was not intended for the fire, his father exploded and made him stick his hand into the fire to pull it out.
He never had any encouragement for school achievements or accomplishment. He succeeded in sports, unlike any of this brothers, but no one supported his success, his parents didn't go to a single one of his games. He passed on college football and baseball scholarships, saying, meh, just not what he wanted to do.
These were the kinds of stories I heard while I was married. I couldn't relate, my childhood was such a contrast. I felt pain for him, even though he told these things with no emotion, as if he were describing the weather. I could understand how they might impact him, what I didn't really get was how deeply rooted that pain was, and how it was ultimately going to manifest itself.
I truly believe when his mother finally dies, all of this is going to come out like a volcanic eruption...
hmmmm... this IS very interesting...When I met LL he was the most charming, smooth, personable, moralistic, optimistic and mature 25-yr old young man I had ever met. He was also full of machismo. I thought it was cute and part of our culture so I really did not think anything of it...
We are talking about masks...I always believed that LL never wore them but in truth, he has. When I met him, he was wonderful...I think at the time he was happy...law school was tough and I helped him out---I would do stuff for him. When we married I can see the little cracks appearing...during our infertility and the years that it took. I remember when they told me I was pregnant for the second time, he broke down and cried. I was startled b/c I had never seen him that way.
When we got pregnant for the third time, he had no emotion...he said he didn't believe I would carry to term...because I had not the other two times.
I think not having kids was hard for him...harder than what I thought it would be for him. I think of his childhood and his parents relationship. He never talked about them being loving with one another...In truth, I do not think they were. He hated rejection. I am not sure if it was because he felt rejection from his father. He was a more sensitive person and I don't think he got that from his dad. His mother's life revolved around her kids and she is very possessive of them even now---especially LL.
He still pays the bills, he visits his mom a lot more. He said that I had "killed" the pathetic man he was and that that man was "never going to come back". Recently he said that he had learned "a lot" about himself over the past year, he describes it as being hard and that home is his "haven" for him now...yet he never stays a long time...even shorter than before.
I have no idea what is happening to him now. He used to have a lot of contact with me...but over the past few weeks he has rarely talked to me and I have not seen him in 2.5 weeks, which is strange for him, because even though he left he would always stop by to see me and the dogs.
Who he is now, is not really an attractive person to me and I wonder if he will remain that way or will he come out of it and be the person I married...
I personally think LL has a long way to go. Last summer he was the meanest person I had ever met...I think he left because he said he didn't want to be like his "mom & dad". I don't think he wants to be vulnerable ever again. He seems to be okay with his life and how its going...he requires A LOT of validation for the things he does that are good...a LOT of praise...I wonder where that comes from? He always gave the impression that his mother was the best mother ever. So I wonder to myself, is this really MLC or is he just this way with his macho attitude dictating his life.
I don't know what the answer is...
Aug '06: H moved out July '08: H had a kid with the OW May 12 '09: emancipation day
"Life moves pretty fast. You don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it." -Ferris Bueller
It is a little of both. How difficult it is for a child to realize that their mother may be flawed. I was fortunate and can now deal with this fact.
Your answers will come, but you do have to sit quietly and listen. Don't react or respond. You can sift thru the information they 'spew' and figure it out during your quiet times. You truly don't want them back while they are figuring things out. Let the damage fall on the op or where it will. Not being mean, just honoring myself and his journey.
Mickey is right; it is hard for children to realize and acknowledge their parents' flaws. It is part of growing up. Some people can never get there.
I know for my husband, he will not let himself go there. A lot of it is Catholic guilt. "You must honor your mother and father, no matter what they do to you." "You must not question; it is disrespect." "They are doing their best, you cannot doubt that."
I know when my FIL was dying with a brain tumor, all he wanted to do was come home to die. He said that, multiple times. My MIL would not let him. Would not LET him...you read that right. She insisted he stay at the hospice. She would go visit him every day and go home at night.
None of the children would speak up to her and say this is what our father wants, to die with dignity, in his own home. But she proclaimed herself a martyr because she went to the hospice every day. She still says it to this day, "I was there, by his side every day." In the meantime, you could see the horror in this man's eyes, when he could no longer speak, and everyone would parade in and out of his room all day...
My husband was tormented by this, absolutely tormented. He knew what his father wanted. But no one, no one would speak up to my MIL...so they all sat, and watched their father die, in agony and didn't say a word to her.
You say that what you are saying is speculation. That is one of the reason I speculate very little. If there is one thing I know, it is that I don't know much about any particular situation. I haven't seen the spouse. I never heard their side. So I just don't now. Maybe you weren't that good a spouse. Maybe you took your spouse for granted. Maybe you didn't see the signs when you first married. I don't know. But I will say anything is possible. But when newcomers stop by for the first time and people jump immediately on the MLC bandwagon without much thought, the newbie has a tendency to run with the first plausible idea. And next thing you know, they are still, bitching, moaning and complaining two years later.
I think anything is possible. But let me put this into my perspective when it comes to childhood issues. I was promised from the time I was about 6 years old, my father told me he wanted me to be in his business. As I got older, he went on to say that he had agreement with the major partner (there was a second minority partner who invested to assure a steady supply for his distribution business) to buy him out. I spent all my time at that place. I started mowing lawns, reading blueprints, anything I could do to be there and learn. I worked in the factory when people thought I was old enough to do so, even though I was underage. I gave up time with my friends. They'd be going to a movie on Tuesday night and I would be working. I went to college learning things that would be useful for the business. I spent my holidays working in the factory. I had mono and kept working.
Then, at 23, his partner died. So, after a cooling off period, I asked about the agreement to which my father said "oh, we never signed them." Can you see where that had an effect on me? I'd call that an issue. It caused me much uncertainty and questioning in my life. While I did enough wrong and I was searching for my way in life, I didn't go out and have a family only to break it up by screwing some dopey broad or college coed (I taught at a major university) because my father misled me and my mother didn't breast feed me. Yes, I had a prolonged crisis, but I was still grounded enough not to be the j@ck@$$ that many of you married.
Both of my parents died. There was no volcanic explosion.
As I said before anything is possible. And perhaps my flaw is to say I don't know for sure what is going on rather than speculating and causing others to spin their brains out. All I can do is assure people they will be ok and they can only control their lives.
IMP, We're not talking about the surviving spouses here; I think those of us that are participating have pretty well demonstrated that we know how to survive, and we're going to be just fine, thank ya very much. We are having a discussion about our spouses and why this may be happening to them. We find it interesting. If you think we are wasting our time, you don't have to play along. Go start yourself a "you will be ok and you control your destiny" thread; we'll post recipes...
And the distinction in what you describe and what happened to my husband is that your story starts at 6. And in fact, even though you suffered a disappointment in your twenties, what your story reveals is that you had a father who took a very keen interestin in you and inspired you through different means to make something of yourself and showed that he had an interest in your future.
My husband's neglect, on the other hand, started at birth....his mother either didn't have the time or by her fourth, didn't have the inclination, to love him and nurture him. She threw him in with the pack to "self-raise". His father was so angry and beaten down by that time, that he basically ignored him, unless it was to be pissed off at him.
That's what angelica and I were posting about earlier, this notion that this relatively benign comment by his mother touched off this downward spiral...it touched it off because starting from the time he was an infant, he was deprived of his mother's love and the nurturing and security that children must receive very early on in order to grow up without inherent insecurity.
Inmyplace Can I be clear about this. Are you saying that we shouldn't speculate - by speculate I mean make some deductions from the evidence that we have? Knowing that we may have read the situation wrong or that our theory may be incorrect? I think that as long as we say - look, could this be the case?
I hope that I am not doing the newbies any harm. If I am I apologise. COuld someone else come in on this? I hoped this was useful, but you seem to think not . . . .
The books I cited earlier [and they are by pretty well respected people] are very clear that it is EARLY abuse that causes the most damage. By early we are talking pre-6 years old. Now I don't know you, and your background,but the kind of treatment that is posted here seems to go way beyond a failure to honour a promise. I am not trivialising what you tell me happened to you, but was there systematic abuse of the kind that Snodderly and others have described?
I was married for more than thirty years to a very good kind and loving man who changed virtually overnight into a monster that none of his friends or chldren recognised. He wasn't always an a**hole. While my paramount concern is to live my own life I would like to know WHY this happened. If it is just a random universe and these things hapen, OK.
