muddled and angry: Puddle's sencond thread

[Puddle]

Hey Sandi,

I get what you're saying about talking about my feelings when he brings it up, signaling he's ready to hear it. He's done that. I know he wants to hear it, and part of me wants to share that with him, but part of me feels like it wouldn't do a damn thing except make him feel better. I don't think he'd get it (like he doesn't think I get it), or that I could reach him right now. So maybe it's like not telling him that I've only told 3 people while he imagines I'm spreading the news far and wide: I want to keep it to myself. Why should I share my feelings with him when it won't make any difference? It's an obvious defense mechanism.

At the same time, I know that's what he's telling me he needs. You know how we keep asking ourselves, "Will this bring us closer together?" I think this would, but not in the way I'd like---more like friends moving on. Maybe I should take what I can get?

Re the living situation. The basement apartment wouldn't happen for ages---it's not even being planned yet, let alone built. So here we are in the same house, and he's asking how he can build the life he wants within my parameters (no visits/phoning in the house). I guess he can't. It's hard to discuss terms for what he wants right now. I can't imagine that conversation going well, so I'm avoiding it.

I felt much stronger before, when I was just going about my life and not worrying what he was up to. The truth is that we're in very different places---he's done and I'm not---and we're going to run up against that sometime. I just don't feel like I'm ready for it.

So what do I do? Start interviewing counselors? (By the way, he's been in therapy for a long time. His therapist is a wonderful man, who was married for years before he came out of the closet. I may be wrong, but I imagine he can empathize with H, and H has obviously used the analogy of being gay to try to explain to me how impossible it would be for our M to work. Not sure if H is in a MLC, though he claims he's not, for whatever that's worth.)

Re him living in the house, for him our M is so over that there's no conflict. This is a man who literally knows no one who's been married for the long haul. I don't think he's particularly concerned about "morality" re the kids, at least not that kind. Ethics, maybe. This is the man who wanted to be sure he wasn't just staying in our M because he "should." The self-respect issue is one I'll have to consider. It's hard for me to figure out where the line is between strength and self-betrayal.

Argh, babbling again. Thanks, Sandi, and to everyone else for reading. I hope you're all doing well. Take care.

[Heimlich]

Puddle,

Eesh, sorry to read about your double-whammy here.

Regarding talking to your H, seems like a catch-22. You're right, eventually you're going to run up against the "I want end, he wants out" split in viewpoint.

To my way of thinking, if he wants to talk, talk. Think about what you want to say, even take some notes if you need to so that you don't freeze up. From what you're writing, especially regarding his therapists, his feelings aren't going to change in the near term, but maybe if you open back up to him, he might start (and this might seem an oversimplification) "acting right." You're H is someone I just can't grasp.

Also, the idea that he's seriously considering living under the same roof long-term while pursuing other women scares the daylights out of me, and I know this talk is coming (re his last email). He's terrifyingly logical, and I can imagine him saying, look, this R is over, so what's the problem? It keeps me close by, saves money, etc. I think I'd just freeze up.

Let's assume that you're reading your H correctly here. Is the anticipation of waiting for this to happen any worse than getting it out in the open -- if this is in fact what he's thinking? It seems like the anticipation may be worse than the actual pain of what may/will happen. I mean, you've set up some pretty grim scenarios of what your H is thinking -- I think not knowing is eventually going to drive you batty.

I felt much stronger before, when I was just going about my life and not worrying what he was up to. The truth is that we're in very different places---he's done and I'm not---and we're going to run up against that sometime. I just don't feel like I'm ready for it.

You've just been beat up emotionally from your father being ill, don't worry about feeling strong now. I think you're ready for it, just need to work yourself up to it.

I get what you're saying about talking about my feelings when he brings it up, signaling he's ready to hear it. He's done that. I know he wants to hear it, and part of me wants to share that with him, but part of me feels like it wouldn't do a damn thing except make him feel better.

How is you sharing the pain and hurt you're feeling going to make your H feel better? I'm not getting this. Your H sounds like he wants you to let him go so that he doesn't have to take full responsibility for what he's doing. If you're still invested in the M, it's not all his fault. As long as you are, I'm guessing he's going to feel guilty. All I can say is that you know that you want to save this M. Speak that truth to your H. Make him live with a decision that HE has to make. You can't make him stay and work on the R, but you don't have to say it's OK to end it if you don't want to end it. I don't think that he should be able to live at home and start to live a totally separate life without you. You're not his roomate, you're his W. Set a boundary that's comfortable to you.

I grew up relatively poor after my Mom divorced my first step dad (a happy day). We didn't have a lot of stuff, but we had food and enough cloths. Looking back, we were happiest then than before or after.

Keep focusing on yourself, Puddle and doing the best you can for your kids. Your H is off in fantasy land somewhere, lure him back down to earth.

BD

[Puddle]

Hey Heim,

Think about what you want to say, even take some notes if you need to so that you don't freeze up.

This is good advice (and to a writer---duh!), and the fact that I haven't even gotten into it in my journal reminds me what a huge wall I have up regarding this. I'll have to face myself some time, though, and before he brings it up again is probably a good time.

From what you're writing, especially regarding his therapists, his feelings aren't going to change in the near term, but maybe if you open back up to him, he might start (and this might seem an oversimplification) "acting right."

I agree---he's not budging anytime soon. He's been much more friendly and open since our talks (despite my rubbing salt in the wound re the kids). What do you mean by "acting right," though?

Your H is someone I just can't grasp.

You and me both, my friend. Weird to have your mate turn into a pod person, isn't it?

Is the anticipation of waiting for this to happen any worse than getting it out in the open -- if this is in fact what he's thinking? It seems like the anticipation may be worse than the actual pain of what may/will happen.

Thanks for pointing that out. You may very well be right. The anticipation's pretty bad; how much worse could the truth be? Like I said, I'm not feeling like I'm in a good place right now, and I'd like to find a better one before addressing this with him. I might not have the chance, though.

You've just been beat up emotionally from your father being ill, don't worry about feeling strong now. I think you're ready for it, just need to work yourself up to it.

I wish I believed that right now. I'll give myself a couple of pep talks, though, and hopefully that'll help. I am strong I am strong I am strong.

How is you sharing the pain and hurt you're feeling going to make your H feel better?

I didn't express that well. I think what I meant was I didn't want to give him the satisfaction that he's right about what I'm feeling. Like when he first told me he was having doubts he started telling me what I needed, and whether he was right or not, I didn't want him to dictate what I need (like I don't get to dictate what he wants or doesn't).

A side note on this: When H and I first met, cynicism was my defense mechanism. When he told me he saw through it and I was really just a big softy, I think that's when I began to fall for him. It's painful that we've come full circle.

Your H sounds like he wants you to let him go so that he doesn't have to take full responsibility for what he's doing.

I agree with you on this one. I know I don't have to, and that I can't act based on how I think he might react. When I think about this, though, I'm constantly imagining what he'll say/do/think, which tells me I am not detached. Maybe just hiding. Any advice?

If you're still invested in the M, it's not all his fault.

I don't get this sentence. Could you please recast, you editor?

As long as you are, I'm guessing he's going to feel guilty. All I can say is that you know that you want to save this M. Speak that truth to your H. Make him live with a decision that HE has to make. You can't make him stay and work on the R, but you don't have to say it's OK to end it if you don't want to end it.

Yes, I agree that he's going to feel guilty. I guess this answers my earlier plea for advice. I've told him it's not okay with me, it's not what I want, and I don't think I need to keep beating that horse. Like I mentioned earlier, re the living arrangements, when the time comes I want to be clear that he's making the choice. If I say to him, "Look, I'm happy to live with you as long as you're not involved with anyone else. When and if you are, you need to leave," he'll experience that as having no choice, i.e., I'm pushing him out. How will he be able to experience that as having made a decision?

And by the way, how would you word that? WWOTS? (What would OT say?)

I don't think that he should be able to live at home and start to live a totally separate life without you. You're not his roommate, you're his W. Set a boundary that's comfortable to you.

Hello, fear. As long as I'm afraid he'll respond with, "Okay, then we'll have to get a divorce," I'm stuck. Detach detach detach. You know, when he first told me it was over, he said he had expected me to kick him out. He was so impressed that I didn't. Now I realize that for him, I think that meant, "I know it's over and it's still okay for you to be here." He's going to be dismayed when he realizes that's not what I meant. Hey, I'm afraid he's going to be angry; there's an insight. Wow, I'm apparently afraid of a lot of things right now.

I grew up relatively poor after my Mom divorced my first step dad (a happy day). We didn't have a lot of stuff, but we had food and enough cloths. Looking back, we were happiest then than before or after.

Thanks for sharing that. I know money doesn't equal happiness, and the kids and I will be fine regardless. It's a nasty turn of events, but I'll deal.

Your H is off in fantasy land somewhere, lure him back down to earth.

Fantasy land, indeed. I wish I knew how to lure him (into the path of a truck, sometimes). I think you're talking about being honest, though, and I'm going to have to do that, afraid or not.

Thanks for being there. It's a huge help.

[Heimlich]

If you're still invested in the M, it's not all his fault.

Hmmmm, this made sense earlier, but damned if I can recall what I was thinking. I blame the 16 ounces of mead I had at 2 this afternoon

One thought on the fear, I remember from DR one of the ideas is to mentally create the worst outcome you can imagine. Given your imagination, I'm guessing you can create a couple of pretty grim possible futures. After you do that, it can give you a sense of peace. That helped me a little. I wish I could say I got over the fear beforehand, but, really, I was acting out of fear all summer (to some extent, since last October). What really got me past my fear was walking out of the final D mediation apointment. After that, the D (or at least separation) became real -- the thought became "This is really going to happen." At that point, I started dealing with a reality, not something that was going to happen in the future. A little scary, but by becoming a situation that I had to deal with, most of the fear melted away over the next day or two. Honestly, it's not as scary as I thought it would be.

You can embrace or fight change. I'm trying to embrace it and make the changes as positive as I can.

When I settle in, I'm going to read your posts through again. Seriously, your H really does baffle me. What I mean by "acting right" is just that -- acting like he's got some responsibilities to deal with, not like he can just do what feels good for him and everything is just going to work out. Realizing that, even if he does end up hurting you and his family, that he also needs to be as fair as possible to you and his children. That's kind of what I mean.

BD

[bar]

Puddle I'm getting back to you when I've properly woken up.

take care

[C_K]

Puddle

Thought I would look in on you and your H is where my W was many months ago, staying out all night , still at home etc.

I like to keep things simple so here goes. Firstly you are only a short way into this so you will get lots of advice that will be very hard to follow. Dont worry too much , it will fall into place as time goes on.

The best advice I can give you is to concentrate on what you can control. That is you.
Avoid relationship talk if you can . Relax when you can , do stuff you enjoy even when you feel terrible , cry when you need to.
Do not be afraid of the future and do not be afraid to do the right thing.
Let your H go , this will be the hardest thing to do and to be honest will take time.

Learn to be very patient its not a quick or easy ride , but believe me , you have been to my post and I am happier now separated than I was at any time in the last year. If someone told me that when I had been a month or two into this I would not have understood how so dont worry if you dont.

Dave

[Puddle]

Hey everyone,

Heim, I like your suggestion about imagining the worst possible outcome. Right now I think it goes something like this:

H becomes angry and disgusted when he realizes I'm not down with him living his new life in the same house, says I thought you were so strong, but we'll just have to get divorced, moves out, files, leaves me penniless, immediately finds that "amazing natural connection" he's looking for (with a 20-year-old supermodel/Nobel prize winner), marries, abandons his kids for his new kids, and lives happily ever after, while I languish, eating sugarless bonbons and reading romance novels that I have to steal coverless out of dumpsters.

How's that? I think I'll need to revise, focusing more on the in-between pain I'm fearing. And I think I'm right with you on the recovering much further into this. He's going to most likely move out, and we'll have to go from there. It's astonishing to realize I'm probably most afraid of what he'll think of me. I was much happier when I was feeling like I didn't think much of him.

I'm beginning to think H isn't so baffling after all. He's done, he thinks I'm accepting it---willing to build a new life together (in the same space) but not together---and looking to move on. What's bothering me most right now is that feeling that things will change in his view of me when he realizes I'm not so modern after all.

bar, wake up! Are you in a Walmart mac-and-cheese-induced stupor? Hope you're doing okay over there. I know things are bad.

Dave, you're right---I'm still in early days (I can't believe I've survived the last month!). I know things are going to be up and down, harder, then even harder, then so hard I think I'm going to crack, then a little easier.

I'm trying to take care of me, and weirdly, with everything that's going on (my dad in the hospital, his sister died while I was visiting him---a real banner week for my family---and all these trips to plan) I'm happily busy. H asked me if I need some extra time by myself and my response is "No!" *I* want to keep the kids, I'll deal.

Do not be afraid of the future and do not be afraid to do the right thing.

This is usefully succinct. To be honest, I think I'm less afraid of a future by myself than I am of H's reaction when I tell him the living together thing isn't going to work for me if he's seeing other people. Maybe it's so much closer. Anyone know what the right thing is?

It's helpful to hear that you also are happier now than you've been in a long time. I'm curious to discover the real me, the just-me. In fact, one of my big goals for myself is to develop more of a community, close relationships with people who matter to me and to whom I matter, and even though it's virtual, I sure appreciate the help from all of you in this crazy time. I'm grateful to and for you. I wish I skiied!

I feel like I've been spending too much time focusing on H lately, while all the things keeping me busy are doing just that. Tonight's my night to go out, and I need to do something for myself. Revisit my goals, maybe, and make a list of all the things I've done lately that are unusual for me and make me feel good about myself.

Let him go. Check.

I can do this, and I can embrace this change, as Heim says, or I can fight it and wallow in self-pity.

Take care, everyone.

[Puddle]

I forgot to mention another piece of new info I gleaned from my convos with H:

Not only is he not having a PA, he says he only began to have doubts about us in July, dropped the bomb 8/1.

Not sure that means a damn thing, but it surprised me.

Take care, all.

[Heimlich]

we'll just have to get divorced, moves out, files, leaves me penniless, immediately finds that "amazing natural connection" he's looking for (with a 20-year-old supermodel/Nobel prize winner), marries, abandons his kids for his new kids, and lives happily ever after, while I languish, eating sugarless bonbons and reading romance novels that I have to steal coverless out of dumpsters.

ROTFLMAO. Thanks for the giggle.

Not only is he not having a PA, he says he only began to have doubts about us in July, dropped the bomb 8/1.

If this is true, then he's probably every bit as confused as you are. My 2 pennies this a.m.

BD

[Nomopo]

Hey P! There are number of things in some of the past posts I want to respond, but let me hit one for now:

As long as you are, I'm guessing he's going to feel guilty. All I can say is that you know that you want to save this M. Speak that truth to your H. Make him live with a decision that HE has to make. You can't make him stay and work on the R, but you don't have to say it's OK to end it if you don't want to end it.

Yes, I agree that he's going to feel guilty. I guess this answers my earlier plea for advice. I've told him it's not okay with me, it's not what I want, and I don't think I need to keep beating that horse. Like I mentioned earlier, re the living arrangements, when the time comes I want to be clear that he's making the choice. If I say to him, "Look, I'm happy to live with you as long as you're not involved with anyone else. When and if you are, you need to leave," he'll experience that as having no choice, i.e., I'm pushing him out. How will he be able to experience that as having made a decision?

He may experience that as you pushing him out, and he may deny that he has made any choice, but that is his problem. That is part of the alien world/spew we have to deal with. It is pure fiction. Neither you nor the majority of the rest of the world will view that boundary as you being the one choosing to end this M. So decide what is best for you, let him make his choices, and try not to worry about his fantastical midnset about what he is doing. Easier said than done, I know.

Hugs, and back for more later,

Nomo

And by the way, how would you word that? WWOTS? (What would OT say?)

I don't think that he should be able to live at home and start to live a totally separate life without you. You're not his roommate, you're his W. Set a boundary that's comfortable to you.

Hello, fear. As long as I'm afraid he'll respond with, "Okay, then we'll have to get a divorce," I'm stuck. Detach detach detach. You know, when he first told me it was over, he said he had expected me to kick him out. He was so impressed that I didn't. Now I realize that for him, I think that meant, "I know it's over and it's still okay for you to be here." He's going to be dismayed when he realizes that's not what I meant. Hey, I'm afraid he's going to be angry; there's an insight. Wow, I'm apparently afraid of a lot of things right now.

I grew up relatively poor after my Mom divorced my first step dad (a happy day). We didn't have a lot of stuff, but we had food and enough cloths. Looking back, we were happiest then than before or after.

Thanks for sharing that. I know money doesn't equal happiness, and the kids and I will be fine regardless. It's a nasty turn of events, but I'll deal.

Your H is off in fantasy land somewhere, lure him back down to earth.

Fantasy land, indeed. I wish I knew how to lure him (into the path of a truck, sometimes). I think you're talking about being honest, though, and I'm going to have to do that, afraid or not.

Thanks for being there. It's a huge help. [/quote]