Corri's Workshop II

[Corri]

LFL:

My point in expressing this was not to be comforted by you all... but thank you

Corri, you do tend to get overly emotional when people disagree with you. And you make your points in such a harsh way at times it just seems...odd..to me. Why do you really care if the people on the boards "get it" or not?

My point in posting my OWN failings and limitations is to give examples of what I have been talking about. Pointing it out in someone else just makes it look like I am pointing a finger.

Why do I get so harsh and so upset sometimes? 'Cuz I do... don't know why really... but what I do know is those emotions are MY problem... and if I don't work my way through what I am feeling, I will come off appearing harsh and/or upset.

While there isn't anything wrong with either, it's just not how I'd prefer to act or respond. I don't want the feelings to go away... I'd just like to get a grip on it much better before I do or say anything. I know when I lose it now, and I know what to do to get myself back on track. Whew. That took quite a while FOR ME to get. Don't know if it would for anyone else...

It's part of what I've been talking about... and again, I am going to say, this stuff is not easy... at least, not as easy as it is to read about it.

So. That's why.

Corri

[Corri]

Cobra:

I think the 30 posts on the 31st is a function of your frustration with me and maybe an attempt to get back up to the validation peak that you felt on the 28th.

How's that Center of Universe Chair feel? Comfy?

Corri

[Cobra]

Corri, LFL,

Cobra, as someone who has not been on the board too much recently but certainly has history with most of you, that comes off a little...creepy.

I'm not sure what it is you find creepy... maybe that I was compiling statistics on Corri's posts? If so, I have a reason for it. Simply saying that I think she was getting "giddy" is just an opinion that could not have anything behind it. The only way I could think of to back up my POV was to show the numbers to give some idea of what I thought I was seeing.

Now, the reason I made that post in the first place is not cut Corri down, but to put forth a possible explanation for what she was feeling. I did not get any sense of her frustration with GGB. If it was there I missed it. I did get a lot of frustration toward me. I think that is fairly easy to see. But I also know Corri is quite advanced in checking her emotional involvement and reactivity. So I was confused as to why she seemed to get getting so riled up. I was not getting upset at her comments at all.

I remembered that earlier in the week I felt she was really feeling "giddy" about some of the insights people were getting from her. All that is great, BUT, having grown up with a mother who used to swing back and forth in her moods, and having a wife who does the same, I saw a pattern emerging.

IMO, my mother and W both place blame on others for triggering some kind of disappointment that pushes emotions down, that hurts feelings, that invalidates somehow and causes resentment, anger, disappointment, etc. My experience is that this is not always the case. The setup for the downside is often in going too high to the upside. When my mother and W get too "giddy" it is almost inevitable that the downside is around the corner because "giddyness" can only go so high before it is unsustainable.

OTOH, if the same factors that "push" the downside were to come about when my mother and W's moods were more "baseline" the downside is very shallow. There is not as far to fall. So I try not to let things get too "high" if I can influence things at all.

I think people who have felt oppressed, subjugated, demeaned, whatever, either in their FOO or with an abusive spouse, and have suffered damage to their self esteem, can become "giddy" when they become the focus of lots of good validation. I have seen this many times. Let me be clear that I see nothing wrong with that per se. But when things turn down, it can be very confusing to that person to understand what has happened and it can be too easy to blame the invalidation coming from others or the excess involvement and caring of that person, which may or may not be the real problem. sometimes it is just a natural consequence of too high a swing in emotions. Just my 2 cents.

[MJontheMend]

I think people who have felt oppressed, subjugated, demeaned, whatever, either in their FOO or with an abusive spouse, and have suffered damage to their self esteem, can become "giddy" when they become the focus of lots of good validation.

Or maybe people who just happen to be girls sometimes act "giddy". There's a reason why the word "gay" acquired it's modern usage. I swear sometimes I picture you as Henry Higgins singing "Why Can't a Woman Be More Like a Man?" Now, don't get me wrong, there's definitely a way to do that vibe sexy but you gotta work on it a bit. If you want to go around reforming female street urchins you better have some candy in your pocket, Professor, or you ain't gonna get them to make those nice vowel sounds.

[blackfoot]

Or maybe people who just happen to be girls sometimes act "giddy". There's a reason why the word "gay" acquired it's modern usage.

Yep. How another person expresses their emotions is NOT wrong. It may be differant then how you do it, but that does not make it bad/wrong. Im not talking about pyschopaths, or deviants, or rapists, or murderers. Just incase I have to qualify that to some nimblenut.

I swear sometimes I picture you as Henry Higgins singing "Why Can't a Woman Be More Like a Man?" Now, don't get me wrong, there's definitely a way to do that vibe sexy but you gotta work on it a bit. If you want to go around reforming female street urchins you better have some candy in your pocket, Professor, or you ain't gonna get them to make those nice vowel sounds.

HAHAHAHA! reminds me of when NOP replied to my question about the indifferance of TOM's. the depth of humor is genius.
Why in the world would a man, want a woman-- to be more like a man?

I am guilty of talking a long time (too long in his view) because I tend to not want to wrap up because I'm afraid to stop because I don't know when I'll get another chance to talk. I'm living in a talk-starved marriage. I get a little talk and I feel crazy and giddy and want to keep talking and talking because it feels so good.
"I will not live in a communication (talk)-starved marriage."


Mrs. Cac. between you and Mojo, Ive been crying from laughter ..I havent laughed this hard... Im saving this. Every time I read it..I will not live in a communication (talk)-starved marriage.".. hahahah. Its serious. I know. Thats why...so funny...whew.

There is nothing wrong with you wanting to talk. You need to talk. It would do you a world of good, to have some gf's to talk to. This place is pretty good. (plus I get to eveasdrop.) Theoretically you can talk to men too, but seeing as how it makes you feel, it may be dangerous territory.
There is nothing wrong with having needs/desires. The problem comes when you let desire have its way with you.

[Corri]

Cobra:

Now, the reason I made that post in the first place is not cut Corri down, but to put forth a possible explanation for what she was feeling. I did not get any sense of her frustration with GGB. If it was there I missed it. I did get a lot of frustration toward me. I think that is fairly easy to see. But I also know Corri is quite advanced in checking her emotional involvement and reactivity. So I was confused as to why she seemed to get getting so riled up. I was not getting upset at her comments at all.

But I did tell you why... you just didn't believe me, I guess. What you did, I mean, I thank you for your concern and all... but it is what I think blackfoot has called 'logicalling' feelings. It doesn't really work.

But just to clarify, I am not seeking validation, nor am I avoiding invalidation. (Pursuing pleasure/avoiding pain).

Validation is something I give away (and the receiver gets to take it anyway they want). It is not what I seek from another... to do so puts control/responsibility for me in someone else's hands.

Invalidating others is something I seek to avoid doing myself. If I do it, it's usually because I've indulged a negative emotion and do or say something before I've allowed the emotion to work all the way through.

If I am validated, it feels good. If I am invalidated, it feels bad. How I act or respond, regardless of how I feel about either, is where my personal power/control resides. This is how I steer my own ship.

For me and what we have been talking about, it is best to let whatever emotion occurs, to process through. If you don't, the emotion is steering the ship, not my CHOICE.

You are a difficult person to have a conversation with at times, but I know that. But that in no way had to do with what I posted. And no, I did not let my frustration with GGB show... because I wasn't frustrated with HIM... I was sad --> then anxious --> then self-blaming --> then frustrated --> THEN I indulged my little pity party... and that was all about me.

I thought your analysis of my recent posts was interesting. And probably a good deal of them were with you... but for you to assume that I am upping my posts to get my validation 'fix' is off, and actually contradicts exactly what I've been talking about. I'd be a validation 'junkie.' And whoever was 'supplying' that validation would have one heck of a lot of power over me... ewh. BTDT. No thanks.

I don't know why I care so much. I just do. And now that I am aware of it, I need to keep it even higher in my awareness... understand that I REALLY need to slow down when I start getting more concerned about outcomes.

So... GGB, if you are out there... keep your focus on you and your emotions... your actions and reactions... moving that focus to 'outcomes' is self-defeating. I just went through it... and I hope you can see it.

Corri

[fearless]

BF - There is nothing wrong with having needs/desires. The problem comes when you let desire have its way with you.

EXACTLY.

I've written this to Cemar so many times. It is true for ANY desire. When a desire begins to control you, that is when you know you have a problem.

For me, I love coffee but a couple of times a year I will give it up when I see I am relying on it too much and I start feeling like I NEED to have a cup of coffee in the morning rather than WANT a cup of coffee in the morning. My XMIL used to ask when we were down for breakfast "Are you drinking coffee this week?"

[fearless]

Cobra - Differentiation is not to block out greater understanding or awareness of your partner, or greater knowledge of how you feel or what you feel, but it’s effect is to help block out or control the negative reactions and responses that you feel from someone else, either by their direct negative actions or their lack of validating you.

Cobra,

Differentiation does not block out anything. It allows you to not RELY on positive or negative responses and reactions from people. Instead you can rely on yourself and your own self knowledge to feel good (or badly) about yourself. That DOES NOT mean that you are unaware of people's reactions and it certainly doesn't mean that you would choose to be around people that don't really like or respect you. The irony is that better differentiated people do a much better job at finding friends and relationships that are good for them. I would not put up with negativity and excessive criticism OR only positive feedback with no criticality from people surrounding me. I don't NEED their feedback to know myself and feel good about myself. On the other hand I do want to be surrounded by people that genuinely like and respect me and want to see me do my best which means they can and will be critical of me when called for...


Cobra - I generally practice not talking about my work too much either. I will discuss it at times, mention neutral topics or the like, but I have always understood that men should leave the office at the office. Bringing it home opens up too much possibility to drag in all the negative crap that can occur. Then after a while the wife can feel like she is only there as a punching bag or something. At some point the feeling of validation and being included starts to wear off for her and changes to feeling like she is an emotional dumping ground (she gets enough of this from the kids). I think a lot of men understand this dynamic and therefore try to keep the office at the office.

I also think that most women do NOT understand this. My wife talks incessantly to anyone who will listen about all the crap at her school. I will listen for a while, but honestly it’s like a bottomless pit and a one way conversation. She does not want to hear my opinions or advice, so there is little more I can do but listen to something that is boring to me and frustrating too.

I certainly understand how my wife can feel like this if I were talking to her in this way about my work. So I don’t do it. She has figured out her side yet.

Interesting POV. I think you are probably generally right about the gender breakdown although I do know men that want to talk incessantly about work and women that do not.

I personally believe there can be a middle ground. Since I am one of those women that want to talk to my H or relationship partner about my work, I understand that talking too much can be frustrating for my partner. At the same time, work is a significant portion of my life and I would like to be able to share my feelings with my partner. Are you really making the judgment that this feeling is WRONG? Or are you just saying that you don't have the same feeling and cannot understand why someone would want to talk so much?

I am working at not boring or frustrating my partner too much but at the same time it is important to me to share these things WITH my partner. Sure I can and do share these things with girlfriends and coworkers but there is something special to me about sharing these things with my partner. Yes it's true that I don't necessarily want my partner to find a solution for me and in my case I am fine with my partner disagreeing with how I handle things.

To me there is not a right or wrong way to handle work as much as just different ways. Is it right or wrong to like or dislike coffee? If your spouse doesn't like coffee, should you have to stop drinking coffee yourself? Or should your spouse be obligated to start drinking coffee since you enjoy it so much?

Someone had the idea earlier that asking your wife to limit her talking about work to XX number of minutes might be the compromise. "Wife, I understand your need to vent and talk about your day at work. I have a hard time staying focused on listening and get frustrated. I'd like to try giving you 15 minutes to vent and say whatever you have to."

My wife talks incessantly to anyone who will listen about all the crap at her school. I will listen for a while, but honestly it’s like a bottomless pit and a one way conversation. She does not want to hear my opinions or advice, so there is little more I can do but listen to something that is boring to me and frustrating too.

I can certainly sympathize that it is difficult to listen to your wife. At the same time I underlined all the parts where it looks like this is all about how your wife is MAKING you feel with her talking. This is exactly what enmeshed relationships do. You feel frustrated because her unhappiness about her job rubs off onto you. Instead of being able to be differentiated and strong and listen to her you without judgment, you become frustrated because of how YOU feel when she vents. Why does it bother you so much if she does just rant about her job? Why does it bother you so much if she does not want your opinion or advice? Does it make you feel like you are not important enough?

You also made some negative descriptions - "crap", "bottomless pit", and "boring." Do you think that she is aware of the disdain you have toward her? How do you think that disdain makes HER feel??

[Cobra]

Corri,

Here's another assumption on my part. When I don't agree with you or give you repeated reason for why I want to see changes in my wife rather than work on myself, am I coming across to you as your ex? From what I recall of your posts regarding him, I think he did a lot of that, didn't he? I suspect that felt to you like he was hogging the center of the universe chair, that he had no respect for you. I can see how my responses could have triggered similar feelings.

But just to clarify, I am not seeking validation, nor am I avoiding invalidation. (Pursuing pleasure/avoiding pain).

I know.

but for you to assume that I am upping my posts to get my validation 'fix' is off, and actually contradicts exactly what I've been talking about.

I agree, which is what I stated earlier. I too was wondering about this contradiction.

I don't know why I care so much. I just do.

IMO there is a VERY fine line between pure empathy and unconsciously re=experiencing past hurts.

And now that I am aware of it, I need to keep it even higher in my awareness... understand that I REALLY need to slow down when I start getting more concerned about outcomes.

I think this is good. But one of my questions still remains... why would your posting increase so much because you care? Nothing wrong that it should, but maybe an issue if it always does. Just because you care so much doesn't mean you should or need to up the involvement so much. When do you unknowingly cross that fine line and begin tackle past hurts?

You mentioned NOP. I see his posts to people and when he is making a connection on the board, I assume it is also because he cares (he has said so himself). But I do not see the frequency of his posts rise too much. He might make make 5 or 10 posts a day. Ten would be very high for him, and they are usually brief. He cares, you care. Is there something else beneath the two that could explain some of the difference and maybe help to answer your question of why you care so much?


Mojo,

If you think my "giddyness" comments were to try to get Corri to act like a man, then you completely missed the intent of my post. I had no intention of trying to get a woman to act like a man. One on the people I had in mind in whom I also saw the type of "giddyness" I was trying to describe was a man.

[Cobra]

Fearless,

Differentiation does not block out anything. It allows you to not RELY on positive or negative responses and reactions from people. Instead you can rely on yourself and your own self knowledge to feel good (or badly) about yourself. That DOES NOT mean that you are unaware of people's reactions and it certainly doesn't mean that you would choose to be around people that don't really like or respect you.

I must not be making myself clear in my comments because I don't believe I ever said that differentiation makes one unaware of other's feelings. I do understand too that it can make you more understanding of other's feelings, whether you choose to be empathic to that or not.

What I mean when I say differentiation allows you to block out negative emotions is that you prevent yourself from getting emotionally sucked into the other person's emotions, thereby blocking your own emotional involvement, thereby allowing you to more objectively see what is going on and understand what the other person is feeling. We really are on the same page here.