I am not saying that is pretty. Or anything else. But you CAN make a decision on THAT... if you really believe in YOUR beliefs, AND you can let him have his...
But... insofar as I can see... you are not willing to do that. THAT is where the problem enters.
Are you talking about leaving?
It is your boundary, not mine. You are the one who says it has been crossed.
Boundaries, remember, are about YOU, not what you put in place for other people. They are NON-NEGOTIABLE. Only you can decide when they've been crossed, and what action you will take (FOR YOURSELF) to enforce that boundary. If that means leaving, for you, then yes, leave.
Quote:
Quote:
When you found that 18 and Fuckable porn flick of his... what did you do with it?
I put it back where I found it.
You said that you had very strong beliefs about porn... but you put the tape back? That indicates to me that your belief isn't as strong as you make it sound. If I felt the way you say you do about porn, that tape, and other similar stuff I found, would be tossed out. Now. Including the computer. There'd be no fight over it. I can't control someone's viewing habits outside MY home, but if truly felt that strongly about porn viewing IN my home, I would take actions that reflected that belief. I wouldn't fight about, I wouldn't negotiate it. If he didn't like all his stuff getting thrown out, then I suppose he shouldn't bring it into the house to begin with...
But... to be fair, you need to tell him your boundary. You don't have to tell him what you will do if he crosses it, he just needs to know it is there.
If he continues to bring it into the house... and he has passed the limit (and only you can decide that), take the kids and leave. No discussion. No fight. Because it isn't about him. It's about you and living/acting consistent with what you say you believe. Period.
But what I see you doing is attacking his behaviors because he is not taking the actions you want him to take, to prove to you what you want him to prove. You set him up to prove his love for you, and he's failing... and that's ticking you off...
that's why I'm saying it isn't about porn at all. You are presenting it that way... but from everything you said here, and from yours actions/reactions, etc., it is about everything BUT porn. YOU are not clear on your own issue, so you get confused when you seem to get confusing answers.
Get clear on your issue(s). TELL him. Don't assume he knows. Then stay congruent with your actions.
If he continues to bring it into the house... and he has passed the limit (and only you can decide that), take the kids and leave. No discussion. No fight. Because it isn't about him. It's about you and living/acting consistent with what you say you believe. Period.
And therein lies the problem. If he crosses her boundary and she can't live with him, what happens to the kids? Why should she take them with her, if it's not about punishing him? Why should she leave the kids behind if he keeps crossing her boundaries and putting her in an intolerable position?
If she crosses his boundaries, should he take the kids and leave? Or is it different in that case? This is why maintaining boundaries in a marriage is hard... because innocent bystanders are involved as well.
a fine and enviable madness, this delusion that all questions have answers, and nothing is beyond the reach of a strong left arm.
I agree with you. Taking the kids is a sure fire way to escalate into a war. I don;t think there is much doubt either Heather or her H are willing to resort to power to enforce their boundaries. I thin the problem has been that they are both too willing to do this.
What lacks in Heather's M seems to be enough effective communication to work through these issues, communication without the frustration and anger that blocks cooperation and therefore a resolution. Both go too quickly to their power base IMO.
I don't think Heather ever said that she was going to take the kids... that came from me, not her... as an example of a boundary enforcing action.
I think before Heather can solve the problem, she has to figure out what the problem actually IS. Yes, she has all kinds of actions she can take... way before she would possibly leave (and that may not even be on her list)... When she is accurate and clear on the issue, THEN she can communicate in a more effective manner.
Again, I don't think Heather has a boundary issue given what she is saying here. IF her boundary is: **I** will not have sex with a man who watches porn, then there still is no problem. It would help a great deal for her to share that boundary with her H, so he knows.
What I see happening, though, is that she is trying to get her H to change his behaviors so that she doesn't have to enforce her boundary... she wants him to get her off the hook... she's having a tough time living with her own boundary.
He should want this, he should do that... he is being inconsistent with what he said is important to him... DISCUSS THAT with him.
But THAT is a separate issue, and has nothing to do with the above boundary, IF that is actually what it is. I don't know... Heather hasn't told us yet what the boundary is, and if she thinks he has violated it...
There is a lot being said here about boundaries, I know I still have a lot to learn. However, I am learning every day to be clearer and clearer about my position on things. I am not convinced that I haven't done a relatively good job on the porn issue. Saying I am not clear on the issue is not true-I am clear on the issue. I am not necessarily clear on the whys of the issue, but that is not uncommon and does not mean I'm a doormat. I have taken time out to do nothing....although you may see that as failure to enforce my boundary, I see it as a huge improvement over where I used to be because I used to 'react' to just about EVERYthing. I am growing, taking time to just feel what I'm feeling, stand by what I feel, consider my options. Corri, you know where I've been, so surely you must see the improvement in that?
A rather monumental event happened the other night, I am still trying to process it....I have such mixed emotions about it. But my emotions are being dealt with separately from my behavior on the outside. It is now time to act 'as if' and I'll tell you what happened.
Monday night I went to bed with my kids and H stayed up-Mondays and Fridays are "H's nights", he stays up late, drinks, watches movies, plays video games, whatever. I just go to bed. My son wakes me up at about 12:40am for a drink of water. I get up....and catch my H sitting on the living room floor in front of the tv, ahem, putting himself back into his pants....very quickly. The DVD player had been shut off in time, but don't think I didn't know what was just going on. I just acted like I didn't notice, got my son a drink and brought the glass back out to the counter. By that time, H had gotten up and tried to busy himself down the hallway. I went to the DVD player, got out what I needed and snapped it in half. I took it down the hallway and said 'Don't ever bring this [censored] into my house again'. He said 'Fck you'. I just walked away. I was shaking, my heart was racing. I am telling you, I could have thrown a car. I went for a walk. Calmed down some. I came back and talked to H. Much was said, all in a very calm and controlled manner. We were both obviously trying to point our effort at damage control to our M rather than cast daggers at one another. All in all, it came out very well. H told me it was completely, ridiculously preferable to be with me and I assured him I would be available-if he promised no more porn behind my back. No more seeking out pictures of naked women. Sexual satisfaction will be kept inside our M....I don't have negative feelings toward satisfying yourself from time to time, but without aid from porn. He agreed to try it after thinking of every reason in the book why it wasn't going to work.
Corri, when I snapped that DVD in half, on some level, even through my cloud of anger and hurt and disbelief, I thought of you. I did not feel like I had the authority to do that the first time I found that disc because I was snooping and it was not my property. I can tell you I had no difficulty with it on Monday night.
I am feeling oddly disconnected about the happenings....finding my H in that position is not one of my fonder memories. This all would have been so much more meaningful if he had just told me the truth the first time when I asked him about porn a few months ago and he lied. I felt so loving toward him and we were in a really, really good place. I don't exactly feel loving right now.....finding him like that just gave me a visual to everything I've been thinking about all these months. It's just numbing me, making me feel totally distanced from him. But this is a great accomplishment for our M and I will act 'as if' until this initial emotional turmoil dies down. I know it will. We've already resumed much of our affections toward one another.....but I still feel very separate. Maybe that's a good thing.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
There is a lot being said here about boundaries, I know I still have a lot to learn. However, I am learning every day to be clearer and clearer about my position on things. I am not convinced that I haven't done a relatively good job on the porn issue. Saying I am not clear on the issue is not true-I am clear on the issue. I am not necessarily clear on the whys of the issue, but that is not uncommon and does not mean I'm a doormat. I have taken time out to do nothing....although you may see that as failure to enforce my boundary, I see it as a huge improvement over where I used to be because I used to 'react' to just about EVERYthing. I am growing, taking time to just feel what I'm feeling, stand by what I feel, consider my options. Corri, you know where I've been, so surely you must see the improvement in that?
I wasn't criticizing you, sweety. You were the one who said you thought you were getting confused with the boundary. I kept coming back at you, not to pounce on you, but to try and help you clarify. Boundaries are tough little suckers to get.
And... I know you are clear on how you feel, and you may THINK you are communicating that clearly... you may be... he may not be listening clearly... or he could be hearing you, but just testing it/you to see if you are serious as you say you are... that's usually one of the very first things that happen when someone sets a boundary... at least until the other person knows that when you set a boundary... you set it and you mean it.
So... if it sounded like I was pounding and hammering away... I was... but on the point, not on you.
It sounds as though your actions are backing up your words, now, too.
I'm sure when you 'caught' him, he was feeling embarrassed on a variety of levels... I'm curious... and this is just me being curious... how do you think you might have felt if you had walked out and he was MBing... just sitting there... no porn or anything involved?
Quote:
I was shaking, my heart was racing. I am telling you, I could have thrown a car.
Good control. Good of you to recognize that you needed to calm down, first and foremost.
Quote:
I went for a walk. Calmed down some. I came back and talked to H. Much was said, all in a very calm and controlled manner. We were both obviously trying to point our effort at damage control to our M rather than cast daggers at one another
This is great... on both your parts. For both of you.
Quote:
Corri, when I snapped that DVD in half, on some level, even through my cloud of anger and hurt and disbelief, I thought of you. I did not feel like I had the authority to do that the first time I found that disc because I was snooping and it was not my property. I can tell you I had no difficulty with it on Monday night.
I did something similar with my bf once. I had a suspicion and I confirmed it. And I pretty much violated his privacy in order to do it. I am not one to violate someone's privacy, for I like mine to be respected, too. Once the issue was cleared between us, we addressed this. I apologized for violating his privacy, and I told him I would not do it again... UNLESS, and ONLY UNLESS, my sense of self-preservation felt threatened.
A long philosophical discussion could be had on that, and I'm sure someone could make a very strong case against such a statement, how that isn't fair, I'm being ridiculous... etc. I'm not looking for agreement or approval. I mean it. I feel so strongly about it, as a matter of fact, that it is a boundary of mine, and if he pushed the issue and said... "me or the boundary..." the boundary would come out on top. There is no doubt whatsoever in my mind that he understands me, loud and clear.
It took me awhile to get over all the left over emotions from that issue of ours. I, too, felt oddly detached, almost like I was viewing myself from outside of my body somewhere. But... I think that only echoes just how strongly and firmly you feel...
They will wash away, eventually. And let them. They won't do you any good, and neither will the mental images. You've got the boundary, you are sure in it, you will take action on it if it is ever tested again...
Quote:
This all would have been so much more meaningful if he had just told me the truth the first time when I asked him about porn a few months ago and he lied.
'If onlys' don't do you any good. Look at it this way... if this had not played out as it had, you may not have learned so much about yourself and your boundaries. In a sense, he did you a favor, and maybe even notched up his respect for you a peg or two.
Two... he's human, Heather. Just as you were and still are. There is going to come a day when you mess up, maybe not on the same scale... but how you deal with this now... and any empathy and compassion you can show as you do so, only goes further in defining your character and your sense of self. He may not treat you in the same way, given the same kind of circumstances... but looking back on your own actions, now... will give you a great deal of information you will need, if and when it happens to you.
That sounds really cryptic, I know. Can't really explain it... hope you can kind of sort of get what I'm saying.
And just a heads up... this might not be a done deal. It might get tested again... but weigh each circumstance as it comes, and see how he portrays himself and owns up to things. Just because a boundary gets crossed doesn't mean it is always done on purpose. So use discretion.
Quote:
We've already resumed much of our affections toward one another.....but I still feel very separate. Maybe that's a good thing.
Maybe you just aren't feeling as fused? And perhaps you have gained back a bit of personal power and self-respect? There is an awareness of him, and an awareness of you, and where those two beings begin and end. Now you can love him/forgive him because you CAN, because you want to, because it is Who You Are... not because you are trying to 'make amends.'
I personally think it is a much healthier place to be. Give yourself some time... don't hold it over his head... it won't do either of you any good... but don't quickly forget it, either. You'll know when... caution is never a bad thing... unless you let it bloom into paranoia, kwis? Trust... but verify?
Heather good for you for standing up for what you are willing to accept.
I do have one caution and that is if your husband is using porn and masturbation as an escape, too "tune out" with it may be very difficult for him too kick, even I you're having sex. One thing I was trying to get at when I shared with you some of my experience with porn was too say that it isn't always just about sexual fulfillment. If your husband isn't very self-aware the way he uses porn allot of issues may come up and be a big struggle.
Although his difficulties are his to deal with.
Separate isn't such a bad thing especially when a boundary is being established.
I guess I am confused. Because I think this can be a very normal thing for a guy. Expecially one that has a higher drive then the other spouse. I don;t feel you should shame a spouse for pleasuring themselves. Unless it directly affects the marriage/intimacy.
