Both, for her to show some interest in my world, be that the job, what I do playing sports, what movies I’d like to see, etc. Interaction. What I don’t want is her stressing and telling what I should or shouldn’t do regarding work, but I would like a little respect from her in TRYING to understand what I do and how I do it, not to force her to become interested in some new field but to show that she wants to share my experiences. You know, the ole enmeshment stuff.
All of this is NOT what you said initially. All of a sudden, it appears to me, you have a changing of the rules... if not a changing, then a much more in depth condition of your rules than stated earlier. Had I not asked and probed, I'm not sure I would have gotten it, and I may very well find myself floundering as your wife does. For there is no telling when you might hit a mine field with you... given lack of info. I wouldn't walk into that field either. I may have faith, but I don't have blind faith. If that is a req., sorry, but, personally, I would move on. And... quite frankly, I did.
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That’s partly it. The boundary issue comes into play here because she might not like the way I handled something, she might not like one of the girls/women at work, so she gets too reactive and I become defensive. Rather not deal with it.
Bulsh!t. Boundary issues don't come into play if OTHER doesn't KNOW the boundary. You keep moving the line, and what's more, you don't even bother to define the line for the five minutes you decide to lay it down. Which keeps you in power.
Do you remember when you said to me... one's who regain power can often take advantage of it and seek retribution? I'm not so sure SHE is the one doing that, for YOU, in most of your posts, will claim a revival of power. The fact that you are NOT willing to be pinned down is indicative to me that YOU are the one who is abusing power here.... maybe.
[quote}Sure, I know this. I have also accepted it as a reasonable “price” to pay.[/quote]
Then as a decent human, stop your quest of blood letting. If not, you are no more than a Nazi. You blame your actions on the ideal. That is NOT an excuse... and I won't buy it. Neither does your wife, and that is why she continues to withdraw. She has a very, very valid reason for withdrawing.
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What she really means is that I am not supposed to have the right to interfere or take command of family matters.
Bllsht. That is YOUR interpretation. Maybe based on past activity, based, again, on YOUR perceptions. YOU have given little to change. She has done... insofar as I understand her through you... as much as she is willing to change... BEFORE she sees willing and VULNERABLE changes within you.
Otherwise, based on HER experience of YOU, it would be outright LUNACY for her to do more.
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…and if I do get close to exposing this... YOU will deflect again, and go on and give me yet another reason why you can't consider changing YOUR behavior.
I have to admit to you all... this thing is doing NOTHING for me. I am on my way. I can drop all of you, most especially Cobra, and be happy.
Or at the very least, find my way. I may not do it right or perfectly... but... I do know where I want to go, and how I want to get there. I may not do THAT perfectly... but I do know when I fck it up.
IT doesn't mean my life is easy, nor my choices... but that does not negate what I know I have to do to get there. Whether I am WILLING to do what I need go get there is a dif story. But my ship to course, nonetheless.
I am weary. The time that I spend here, with you all... I fight it, every day. I do it... because I know the struggle. But I do not have to struggle like this anymore.
I don't HAVE to.
I show up here, eveyday and engage you all... not because I am perfect or have found THE answer, but because I do and will always continue to hope. And I take responsiblity for MY hope.
If you all WANT to be powerless... that is fine. I will not fight you over it.
I'm done. I don't WANT to fight. I don't WANT you to accept MY views.
My hope is, and has always been, to give you another eye, another perspective. If you want to argue over it... I don't want to. If it makes anyone feel any better, NOP never argued with me. If I didn't want to see somethin, okay. Fine. I can't help you. And fine.
No problem.
But I would continually engage him, which meant I was NOT willing to accept me... nor him. I just wanted him, or me, to win.
I, like NOP, am not interested in winning. It will KILL a M, and I an tell you that from personal experience.
If you want to WIN, get out now, and save yourself the frustration. No convo left.
I am not here to win. I have given my best I have to offer. What you all decide to do with it, is all up to YOU ALL. If it doesn't work for any of you, fine. But I have faith, that if you all keep looking, and do NOT give up... you WILL fine your way. If you think that someday you WILL give up, just get up now, and get on with it... for THAT attitude will cloud any option you might find. I know THIS from experience as well.
I FEELS to me like I am frustrating you, so first let me say that I understand your points and how I am holding on to a certain amount of power and that I am doing a certain amount of manipulation with that power. I never excused myself from that option. I believe in taking action rather than sitting around for my W to come to some sort of realization. I have good reason for this.
Remember the ground rules as it concerns my wife: • She was severely traumatized as a child • She learned that she had to fight to survive • She had NO ONE to take care of her and instead took care of her mother • She had no discipline as a child and all the discipline she has now is self imposed • She does not like to listen to men for advice because of “subjugating” messages given by her father • She stop growing emotionally at about 9 and consequently has a very low level of empathy, especially toward men • She grew up very scared
Now, with that in mind, know that earlier in our marriage I spent way too much time and effort trying to avoid fights and her anger. She respected me for my abilities but did not respect me as husband or as a man. At that time I did not know squat about relationships, but I did know enough to think about other peoples’ feelings, including hers. What I didn’t understand is that was also placating. In spite of my efforts, she never once was able to understand my complaints or how I felt. How could she? This part of her was blocked out. Even in counseling it became apparent how little empathy she had for men.
What I came to realize is that the only way she could learn to feel what I felt was to feel it herself. When I began to exert my power and put back on her what she was doing to me, she started to “get” it. The price of this is a power struggle and a long battle. I knew this going in. Slowly things are improving. But there is a lot more to do.
Had I tried to only validate and comfort her, I firmly believe nothing would have changed because that is exactly what everyone else in her family had done before (by this I mean her siblings and friends, after her father left and her mother had died). Her comfort comes from compliance by others but it helps perpetuate the cycle. I had to break out of her grip. Today I do not feel she has a hold on me, but she is still afraid to connect, and when we do connect, something else comes up to provide the necessary drama to dilute the connection and divert attention.
We had a long talk on Wednesday over the phone. Softball was rained out so I was still at the office and she was still at school. We talked over a lot of stuff, and as always happens with these discussions, she feels some connection. For the past two days the tension has eased. But true to form, she has upped confrontation with the kids and even the dog. I predict this will go better between us this weekend but she will find something to stress over, probably the kids school work, or going out too much, not telling her where they are, something. So we shall see.
But back to your points…
All of this is NOT what you said initially. All of a sudden, it appears to me, you have a changing of the rules... if not a changing, then a much more in depth condition of your rules than stated earlier. Had I not asked and probed, I'm not sure I would have gotten it, and I may very well find myself floundering as your wife does.
True in part. But also in part, the discussion was not so deep early on, or at least I did not think so. I don’t think I changed any rules. In my mind I am quite clear on where I stand. I also know that she does not fully understand what I think and feel. But again, remember who we are talking about. She is the avoider. Its not like she probes me to see how I feel. I probe her, and while doing so explain how I feel.
Bulsh!t. Boundary issues don't come into play if OTHER doesn't KNOW the boundary. You keep moving the line, and what's more, you don't even bother to define the line for the five minutes you decide to lay it down. Which keeps you in power.
I understand your point. I can understand if she doesn’t know where the “line” is, and my boundary issue is in not wanting to draw too hard a line. I would prefer there was no line at all in fact. But that is me. I am the pursuer so I am looking to her for acceptance of me. That means I have to focus on whether I am doing something that moves me forward or not.
Almost by default that also puts me into a manipulator role. Remember, two avoiders cannot sustain a relationship. It will die of apathy. For our marriage to have survived this long, one of us has had to do the pursuing. That role has fallen exclusively to me. Now I understand that part of her avoidance is bluff. It became clear when I filed for D. That was one of the few times she approached me to see how “she could get out of this mess” (she did not say “we”).
What this means is that any assertive action I take can be interpreted as aggressive, chasing, not relenting, being abusive, bullying, etc. All she has to do is pull back into her cave and do nothing but sit back and judge my actions. I thought that if I did nothing, the marriage would dissolve AND she would have my kids. She has gone as long as 3 weeks without talking to me. She did a very good job of calling my bluff.
She also comes out of this looking like a victim. As she always says, she is just trying to get away. It is not so innocent, because she has also said that if I ever tried to get the kids she would kill me. That threat doesn’t bother me, but it does tell me the extent she will go to battle. I have to decide if I and the kids should pay the price. And she knows this. She grew up using this tactic.
Do you remember when you said to me... one's who regain power can often take advantage of it and seek retribution? I'm not so sure SHE is the one doing that, for YOU, in most of your posts, will claim a revival of power. The fact that you are NOT willing to be pinned down is indicative to me that YOU are the one who is abusing power here.... maybe.
I remember and I am using power. I do not think I am abusing it though.
Then as a decent human, stop your quest of blood letting. If not, you are no more than a Nazi. You blame your actions on the ideal. That is NOT an excuse... and I won't buy it. Neither does your wife, and that is why she continues to withdraw. She has a very, very valid reason for withdrawing.
The “blood letting” is more in the past than now. I will revert to power if I have to, and I want her to know this, but now I mostly leave her alone and do my own thing. That does not mean I won’t say something though.
Bllsht. That is YOUR interpretation. Maybe based on past activity, based, again, on YOUR perceptions. YOU have given little to change. She has done... insofar as I understand her through you... as much as she is willing to change... BEFORE she sees willing and VULNERABLE changes within you.
Nope, no interpretation at all. She said this very thing only a week or so ago. She has given plenty to change, and she does say she has done more than her share to compromise. The kids are in public school now. She is working now. She says those are things I wanted and forced upon her. I don’t buy her home schooling argument and I think the kids are much better of in public schools (I firmly believe home schooling was to sooth her fears, not for the good of the kids). As the father I do have a say in this too.
As for her working, I did not force her to go to work. What I did was to stop her spending of our money and try to get out of debt. I am now finally debt free after all the years we’ve been married. She is up to her nose in debt and she does not pay for any household expenses. All her money is hers. I even told her on Wednesday that I prefer she not have to work so she could spend time with the kids. But now that D16 is closing in on college, we do need the money.
Otherwise, based on HER experience of YOU, it would be outright LUNACY for her to do more.
I can guarantee that she sees things just as you’ve stated. But that is not accurate and it ignores the fact that I have had to take action to counter what she put in motion. Slowly she sees what I am talking about and how I feel. Slowly she sees where her actions hurt the marriage. I try to watch for these changes since I am consciously pushing to get them. When I do seem them, I try to acknowledge them and back off the confrontation needed to get there. Believe it or not, things are getting better. Whether good enough to make this marriage last remains to be seen.
Ooops, just saw your last post. Sorry to see you go. I really enjoy posting back and forth to you. But I also know my path and will continue sailing it too. God speed to you.
Haven't you learned by now getting in a discussion with Cobra is like trying to get to the end of a Moebius strip? No offense Cobra.
As I mentioned elsewhere, your words were inspirational to me and helped pull me out of my recent funk. I have a new angle on the positive cycle I want to get in with my W, a validation cycle. I can see more clearly how we have been in a stupid invalidation cycle, and one of us needs to put the brakes on it. Guess that's me.
And don't think I've forgotten that when I fcuked up big time on here, you extended a hand of friendship to help pull me out of the hole I was almost buried in.
But you've done your part and got a lot of us thinking about some stuff. If you feel like moving on, fly free. It took me awhile to break the habit of feeling like I needed to respond to every word posted to me. Now I get few responses to what I post, but I'm doing it for me anyway so (shrug).
Chrome
Last edited by chromosphere; 09/01/0705:45 AM.
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
I have to admit to you all... this thing is doing NOTHING for me. I am on my way. I can drop all of you, most especially Cobra, and be happy.
WHAT ?????? Just when I felt I was getting somewhere.
I haven't been on here long, But in that time, Corri has either directly or indirectly given me some good useful tools and direction. Tools and direction that hopefully I can put to good use in not only my relationship but my life in general.
I hope what I'm reading is not true, but if so, Thank you Corri !!! You've been a big help and inspiration, thank you.
Gary
________________________________________________________________ "If you can't lick em, lick em" - Ted Nugent "D'ooh !!" - Homer Simpson
Yeah. My own piss poor boundaries. That post above illustrates it. It's what happens when you allow your emotion to blur your own lines... and you allow your own emotions to blind you to your options and your choices... and you take action/reaction before your emotion(s) fully processes and recede.
When you do this, you act in a dishonest manner... and in so doing... if the person (or people) to whom you direct your action are not aware... you can manipulate the heck out of them.
It's what happens, GGB, when you give into frustration, and get sucked in to being more concerned about outcomes than sailing your own ship.
I know it is hard to see it when it happens to you... but maybe you can see what I've been telling you, through what happened to me here.
Early this week I was a little surprised to see how much you had upped your postings. You were doing some really good stuff, making some very enlightening insights, and it was clear that many people were getting something out of it. It was also becoming clear to me that YOU were getting something out of it. I have no problem with that, you should get some sense of satisfaction out of helping people. You have a LOT to offer.
But what I was wondering was whether this was running as a cycle and if it was, how long would it last? Also, how high would it go and would there be a downside. I think the “peak” was on Tuesday, when you almost seemed “giddy” at some progress others were posting, especially in this comment to Hairdog:
#1178755 - 08/28/07 09:39 AM Re: Corri's Workshop [Re: hairdog]
HD: Quote: Eh...don't be happy for me. I may "get it" on paper, but I'm still a long way from living it. Kind of like the genius teacher of economics, who continues to be a spendthrift.
Sorry. I'm still happy for you. Even have tears in my eyes.
Now all this is only my opinion and is only based on the words I see on my screen, but I felt you well feeling pretty good. You made 33 posts on that one day.
Then you decided to get into my stuff:
#1179666 - 08/28/07 08:16 PM Re: Corri's Workshop [Re: Corri] Cobra: I'm giving you a heads up on something. I am ready to call you on your B.S. I'm not going to do it to piss you off.
Corri
No problem for me. I enjoy the exchanges with you and I was looking forward to it. But it seemed to me that as we got more into it, something in my “deflections” was eating at you. The problem as I see it is not that you weren’t getting the feedback from me that you had hoped for (ie, validation), but you were also striving for more (after so much success on Monday and earlier on Tuesday) when it may not have been possible for the population of posters, including myself, to give you more. So my responses coincided with a natural peak in this validation cycle that had come about, and down the cycle things went.
Now remember, this is only my theory. But look at the number of posts you made during August. Think back if you can on how you felt as each peak in postings was reached and whether there is a cyclicality that you unknowingly went through.
I think the 30 posts on the 31st is a function of your frustration with me and maybe an attempt to get back up to the validation peak that you felt on the 28th. In both cases, the positive and the negative emotions you may have been feeling (which is only conjecture on my part) may have spurred you to post to such excess that you burned yourself out.
I’m not saying there was ANYTHING wrong in any of this. It is just a simple observation on my part that might help you to find your internal balance. K?
Just so you know, GGB's post about how overwhelmed he was feeling by all this EQ stuff, and how frustrated he was feeling because his wife turned him down... is what set me off.
And I wasn't frustrated with him... but when I read that... I felt... great sadness. And all that links to my own crap... and because I don't like feeling sad... the feeling just amped up... it's easier/less threatening to me to feel frustration.
All this happened because I got too emotionally invested in outcomes. I really want him, and all of you who are seeing some sense and hope in all of this... to really succeed. <-- and while noble... that is MY PROBLEM.
Cobra:
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I FEELS to me like I am frustrating you, so first let me say that I understand your points and how I am holding on to a certain amount of power and that I am doing a certain amount of manipulation with that power. I never excused myself from that option. I believe in taking action rather than sitting around for my W to come to some sort of realization. I have good reason for this.
Sweety, you don't frustrate me. You absolutely astound me with your rationalizations and the most superior abilities to deflect... we are so far afield from the original purpose/point of our discussion... and before you go into how I played a part in that, save it. I don't care.
You are your own problem, Cobra. That's my opinion. I know you don't agree with me. End of discussion.
The rest of this stuff with you... is kind of like a dazzled wonder... like... I would feel if we had decided to take a car trip to Orlando, but ended up in Alaska instead. I'd sit there and think, how in the heck did THAT happen? {chuckle}.
I think the 30 posts on the 31st is a function of your frustration with me and maybe an attempt to get back up to the validation peak that you felt on the 28th. In both cases, the positive and the negative emotions you may have been feeling (which is only conjecture on my part) may have spurred you to post to such excess that you burned yourself out.
I’m not saying there was ANYTHING wrong in any of this. It is just a simple observation on my part that might help you to find your internal balance. K?
Simple? Cobra, as someone who has not been on the board too much recently but certainly has history with most of you, that comes off a little...creepy. Although I will say I think your points on validation are insightful.
Corri, you do tend to get overly emotional when people disagree with you. And you make your points in such a harsh way at times it just seems...odd..to me. Why do you really care if the people on the boards "get it" or not? Sometimes you do need to just take a step back and take care of yourself. Stop worrying so much about "us". Be well.
All this happened because I got too emotionally invested in outcomes. I really want him, and all of you who are seeing some sense and hope in all of this... to really succeed. <-- and while noble... that is MY PROBLEM.
Yep.
And let's face it, success rate is not high on this board. Could drive a "fixer" over the edge.
