I FEELS to me like I am frustrating you, so first let me say that I understand your points and how I am holding on to a certain amount of power and that I am doing a certain amount of manipulation with that power. I never excused myself from that option. I believe in taking action rather than sitting around for my W to come to some sort of realization. I have good reason for this.
Remember the ground rules as it concerns my wife: • She was severely traumatized as a child • She learned that she had to fight to survive • She had NO ONE to take care of her and instead took care of her mother • She had no discipline as a child and all the discipline she has now is self imposed • She does not like to listen to men for advice because of “subjugating” messages given by her father • She stop growing emotionally at about 9 and consequently has a very low level of empathy, especially toward men • She grew up very scared
Now, with that in mind, know that earlier in our marriage I spent way too much time and effort trying to avoid fights and her anger. She respected me for my abilities but did not respect me as husband or as a man. At that time I did not know squat about relationships, but I did know enough to think about other peoples’ feelings, including hers. What I didn’t understand is that was also placating. In spite of my efforts, she never once was able to understand my complaints or how I felt. How could she? This part of her was blocked out. Even in counseling it became apparent how little empathy she had for men.
What I came to realize is that the only way she could learn to feel what I felt was to feel it herself. When I began to exert my power and put back on her what she was doing to me, she started to “get” it. The price of this is a power struggle and a long battle. I knew this going in. Slowly things are improving. But there is a lot more to do.
Had I tried to only validate and comfort her, I firmly believe nothing would have changed because that is exactly what everyone else in her family had done before (by this I mean her siblings and friends, after her father left and her mother had died). Her comfort comes from compliance by others but it helps perpetuate the cycle. I had to break out of her grip. Today I do not feel she has a hold on me, but she is still afraid to connect, and when we do connect, something else comes up to provide the necessary drama to dilute the connection and divert attention.
We had a long talk on Wednesday over the phone. Softball was rained out so I was still at the office and she was still at school. We talked over a lot of stuff, and as always happens with these discussions, she feels some connection. For the past two days the tension has eased. But true to form, she has upped confrontation with the kids and even the dog. I predict this will go better between us this weekend but she will find something to stress over, probably the kids school work, or going out too much, not telling her where they are, something. So we shall see.
But back to your points…
All of this is NOT what you said initially. All of a sudden, it appears to me, you have a changing of the rules... if not a changing, then a much more in depth condition of your rules than stated earlier. Had I not asked and probed, I'm not sure I would have gotten it, and I may very well find myself floundering as your wife does.
True in part. But also in part, the discussion was not so deep early on, or at least I did not think so. I don’t think I changed any rules. In my mind I am quite clear on where I stand. I also know that she does not fully understand what I think and feel. But again, remember who we are talking about. She is the avoider. Its not like she probes me to see how I feel. I probe her, and while doing so explain how I feel.
Bulsh!t. Boundary issues don't come into play if OTHER doesn't KNOW the boundary. You keep moving the line, and what's more, you don't even bother to define the line for the five minutes you decide to lay it down. Which keeps you in power.
I understand your point. I can understand if she doesn’t know where the “line” is, and my boundary issue is in not wanting to draw too hard a line. I would prefer there was no line at all in fact. But that is me. I am the pursuer so I am looking to her for acceptance of me. That means I have to focus on whether I am doing something that moves me forward or not.
Almost by default that also puts me into a manipulator role. Remember, two avoiders cannot sustain a relationship. It will die of apathy. For our marriage to have survived this long, one of us has had to do the pursuing. That role has fallen exclusively to me. Now I understand that part of her avoidance is bluff. It became clear when I filed for D. That was one of the few times she approached me to see how “she could get out of this mess” (she did not say “we”).
What this means is that any assertive action I take can be interpreted as aggressive, chasing, not relenting, being abusive, bullying, etc. All she has to do is pull back into her cave and do nothing but sit back and judge my actions. I thought that if I did nothing, the marriage would dissolve AND she would have my kids. She has gone as long as 3 weeks without talking to me. She did a very good job of calling my bluff.
She also comes out of this looking like a victim. As she always says, she is just trying to get away. It is not so innocent, because she has also said that if I ever tried to get the kids she would kill me. That threat doesn’t bother me, but it does tell me the extent she will go to battle. I have to decide if I and the kids should pay the price. And she knows this. She grew up using this tactic.
Do you remember when you said to me... one's who regain power can often take advantage of it and seek retribution? I'm not so sure SHE is the one doing that, for YOU, in most of your posts, will claim a revival of power. The fact that you are NOT willing to be pinned down is indicative to me that YOU are the one who is abusing power here.... maybe.
I remember and I am using power. I do not think I am abusing it though.
Then as a decent human, stop your quest of blood letting. If not, you are no more than a Nazi. You blame your actions on the ideal. That is NOT an excuse... and I won't buy it. Neither does your wife, and that is why she continues to withdraw. She has a very, very valid reason for withdrawing.
The “blood letting” is more in the past than now. I will revert to power if I have to, and I want her to know this, but now I mostly leave her alone and do my own thing. That does not mean I won’t say something though.
Bllsht. That is YOUR interpretation. Maybe based on past activity, based, again, on YOUR perceptions. YOU have given little to change. She has done... insofar as I understand her through you... as much as she is willing to change... BEFORE she sees willing and VULNERABLE changes within you.
Nope, no interpretation at all. She said this very thing only a week or so ago. She has given plenty to change, and she does say she has done more than her share to compromise. The kids are in public school now. She is working now. She says those are things I wanted and forced upon her. I don’t buy her home schooling argument and I think the kids are much better of in public schools (I firmly believe home schooling was to sooth her fears, not for the good of the kids). As the father I do have a say in this too.
As for her working, I did not force her to go to work. What I did was to stop her spending of our money and try to get out of debt. I am now finally debt free after all the years we’ve been married. She is up to her nose in debt and she does not pay for any household expenses. All her money is hers. I even told her on Wednesday that I prefer she not have to work so she could spend time with the kids. But now that D16 is closing in on college, we do need the money.
Otherwise, based on HER experience of YOU, it would be outright LUNACY for her to do more.
I can guarantee that she sees things just as you’ve stated. But that is not accurate and it ignores the fact that I have had to take action to counter what she put in motion. Slowly she sees what I am talking about and how I feel. Slowly she sees where her actions hurt the marriage. I try to watch for these changes since I am consciously pushing to get them. When I do seem them, I try to acknowledge them and back off the confrontation needed to get there. Believe it or not, things are getting better. Whether good enough to make this marriage last remains to be seen.
Ooops, just saw your last post. Sorry to see you go. I really enjoy posting back and forth to you. But I also know my path and will continue sailing it too. God speed to you.
