Afterall...this is MY life II

[Corri]

Let's try this another way. Let's work backward from the end goal.

Imagine for a moment, that H stopped all porn viewing. In so doing, you have stopped his lying about it.

What would achieving that end goal do for you, that is not happening now?

Corri

[heatherg]

Cobra,
I'll consider getting H a book. If I were to do that, I'd want to put some thought into which one and I'd want to have read it first. I'd bet my pinky finger he won't read it though

Martelo-
Thanks for taking the time to give me your perspective. I actually think it's cute when you put it that way. But it's still hard to apply it to my situation because those are your thoughts and feelings, not necessarily those of my H.

[heatherg]

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But that is YOUR problem, not his... given that you recognize that your opinions differ on the matter. The fact that he is being discrete about it says to me that at least he recognizes your opinion as valid. Him lying about it is just avoiding the fight he knows will come IF he is honest with you. Because.... you WANT your problem with his porn watching to BE his problem.

I don’t think it matters whose problem it is. Actually, it just occurred to me that I do not agree that our opinions differ on the matter. He’s admitted that he understands why I feel the way I do, he’s acknowledged that he can see ‘where I’m coming from’. I believe if the situation were reversed, he would have a pretty big problem with my behavior-when I’ve directly asked him that question, his answer is ‘I don’t know’. I’m quite certain he does know….this is the same guy who doesn’t want me to have a vibrator shaped like an actual penis. Any other vibrator is fine. But he’d be ok with me actively looking for other guys schlongs online? Um, no. He definitely recognizes my opinion as valid.
All this points to a change in his behavior, but he doesn’t want to change his behavior obviously. He has basically told me “Yes, I understand that you are hurt, I can see where you are coming from. I would probably be hurt too.” And then he keeps doing it. HUH??
As for wanting my problem to be his problem, I think that’s an overgeneralization. A M is a partnership and one person’s problem often become the problem of the other. It’s an unavoidable part of being a team. And, as in any team, how reliably you pull through in helping to solve the issue reflects your commitment to the team.

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It isn't... unless you are distancing because he is not behaving in the way YOU want him to. That's just a version of stomping your foot.

What’s wrong with stomping your foot? As long you don’t regularly stomp your foot about everything and reserve your strong reactions for those issues you feel strongly about, I guess I don’t see the issue. If I don’t stand up for what I believe in, who will exactly?

Quote:
That I can see. Dropping THE ISSUE, but not all EC, for the punishment does not fit the 'crime.'
How is dropping the issue going to solve anything? That is exactly how people go years in a M and then one day the S drops the bomb. The other partner had no idea. When you just allow things to continue that you do not approve of/are not happy with and go on like nothing is wrong, what is that telling your partner? That everything is FINE. Why would you act fine if you are not fine???
I’m not talking about stomping around slamming cupboard doors. We are being very civil/friendly. We are watching movies together at night, sitting on the same couch. But I make no effort to touch him or be affectionate because everything is not fine.

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That... is manipulative.

Wouldn’t you agree that much of the interaction in relationships could be considered manipulative? Heck, even doing something because you think it will make your partner happy could be considered manipulative. I totally get the idea of doing things because you want to do them and not making your actions dependent on someone else in some way. A good healthy exposure to that idea is helpful for anybody. But the idea can be taken to the point where it’s simply unrealistic and it’s unrealistic to think that your actions do not affect your partner and will not affect their behavior toward you.
I cannot make H do anything, he’ll either change his behavior or he won’t. His choice. But I don’t see any reason why I have to pretend that I am ok with him right now if I am not.

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Yeah, they can. I'm not sure what actions you are talking about, tho.

I WANT to have sex with him right now, but from my perspective it would pardoning something that I never really intended to pardon and don’t really want to go on giving the impression that I have. Just because I WANT to have sex with him doesn’t mean it’s the best thing to do right now. I WANT a great R, but it takes work to get there and I don’t think that maintaining the status quo and the same interactions that have allowed his behavior to continue all these years is the best way to go.

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You can say it. What you get as a result of saying it, tho...
I probably will not say it. I will just act accordingly.

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He needs to, or you need him to?

I would LIKE him to. If that’s the way he can live his life long term, then I would go so far as to say he needs to IF he ever wants a healthy R again. If not, keep on keepin on.

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No, you are depriving you.

Right. Such a decision wouldn’t just come out of nowhere however…..it’s a consequence and unfortunately both of us would feel the pain of it. No pain, no gain though right?

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This is still a control issue for you... you are attempting to control his behavior, his feelings and his beliefs. If he doesn't do it the way you want him to, then you think it should be only right and fair that he accept YOUR punishment.

Right. That’s the way our relationship works, the precedent has been set from day one. I’ve accepted plenty of punishment and I’m still alive and still could even be deliriously happy in this R. I believe that a person has to feel like they can influence their partner-I think it only becomes control when the R is as fcked up as ours is and one person can no longer ‘influence’ the R by the usual, cordial means because both people are so skewed in their perceptions. To me, influence would be to say ‘it hurts me a lot when you look at porn because I feel like I’m not good enough’ and if in fact I meant more to him that porn he would say ‘well I never intended to hurt you or make you feel that way….this is not a big deal to me so I won’t do it anymore’.
There are really two ways to look at my H’s feelings on the issue. One: It’s not a big deal to him and since it’s not a big deal to him he would have no problem putting my feelings first.
Two: It is a big deal to him and so he just cannot put my feelings first on the issue.
Now, we have no way of knowing whether this is truly a big deal for H, all we know is that he won’t stop. So, under scenario 1, it’s not a big deal to him but he is putting his own feelings above mine on an issue he doesn’t even care about. That doesn’t exactly make me feel like I am a priority in his life. Under scenario 2, it is a big deal. In that case, all my negative and hurt feelings are confirmed and I definitely do not feel like I am a priority in his life.

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It feels good to me, to indulge a hissy fit every now and then... but the hissy fit doesn't get me anywhere.

So what would you do in this case that would be more constructive?

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Yeah... and look at that sentence. That's all **I** statements. With projection onto him.
Since I think it’s pretty widely accepted around here that **I** statements are the way you should express yourself, I’m assuming it’s the ‘projection’ onto him that you are getting at but I’m not sure where I projected anything. Can you explain what you mean?

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Yeah, and if you are going to go that route, you'd better be willing to back it up. Otherwise, you are just making threats... and I don't no many people that respond to well to those.

I’m not sure I actually need to SAY anything and therefore, there would be no threat. It’s just the way it is.

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I still don't think Porn is the issue, btw. But. That's just IMO.

At the absolute core, it is commitment to me and to our M. It is making me a priority. Just as he has needed to SEE commitment from me, I need to see it from him too. The porn issue is, granted just one, but one very important example of his level of commitment.

[Cobra]

Heather,

I agree that you two are still in a power struggle. You each have learned a lots of lessons this year. I see the following accomplishments:

Learning to listen to each other’s needs
Learning to to acknowledge those needs
Understanding the power struggle going on and how it is destructive
Learning to make accommodations and lessen the power struggle
Learning to self validate and not depend on each other
Learning to control anger and destructive responses
Learning to lessen control
Learn to trust the other will not revert back to old destructive patterns
Learn to become more vulnerable and express that vulnerability

With all this growth, it seems odd that you two are still stuck. What is missing? One thing I notice is neither of you seem to have been able to truly forgive. You both are holding onto resentment and a need to get even, to show the other who’s right, but to do so in a better, higher level, less overt manner. I see less of this in you than I do in him. I think he is still angry and still really wants to hurt you for what you did to him. Whether that is right or wrong is not the issue if that is how he feels. Have you talked to him about this? Has he reached a state to where he feels he can forgive you? Have you resolved whether you can forgive him?

I know you are focusing on commitment and all, but I don’t see how you can get there if this issue of forgiveness is still in the way.

[Corri]

Heather;

Yes, I understand that you are hurt, I can see where you are coming from. I would probably be hurt too.” And then he keeps doing it. HUH??

He didn't say he was adopting your opinion as his own. He was acknowledging that he understood how you felt, while still respecting his own opinion.

What’s wrong with stomping your foot? As long you don’t regularly stomp your foot about everything and reserve your strong reactions for those issues you feel strongly about, I guess I don’t see the issue. If I don’t stand up for what I believe in, who will exactly?

What you believe has not been challenged. He acknowledged it.

You are stomping your foot because he is not taking the actions YOU want him to take. So, number one, you are still unclear what is triggering you, and how is stomping your foot going to help that?

At the absolute core, it is commitment to me and to our M. It is making me a priority. Just as he has needed to SEE commitment from me, I need to see it from him too. The porn issue is, granted just one, but one very important example of his level of commitment.

Well, that's what YOU are making it about. I'm willing to bet the farm that he doesn't see it that way.

Corri

[heatherg]

Let's try this another way. Let's work backward from the end goal.

Imagine for a moment, that H stopped all porn viewing. In so doing, you have stopped his lying about it.

What would achieving that end goal do for you, that is not happening now?

This R/M will be a work in process until the day he and I both die. I think it would be naive of me to believe that one day, we will have accomplished 'it'. There will good days and there will be bad days. We will get some issues resolved and others will surface.
With that being said, if H stopped the porn and therefore the lying, it would significantly improve our R. When H lied to me, I didn't know it was a lie at the time and I can tell you that I felt like he was making a HUGE statement to me. I felt like a huge weight had been lifted and for the first time I felt like I knew for sure we were gonna make it, we were on the right path. I literally cried, but he didn't realize it I don't think. Turns out it was a lie. So, here we are.

[heatherg]

One thing I notice is neither of you seem to have been able to truly forgive....I see less of this in you than I do in him.

I can't speak for my H, I'm sure he still holds some bitterness/resentment/anger toward me for hurting him like I did. I don't feel like I can forgive things that are still going on but I know I wouldn't have ANY problems forgiving if he stopped.

Have you talked to him about this? Has he reached a state to where he feels he can forgive you?

We haven't talked about my A in a long time. I need to think about this because this may have a lot more to it than meets the eye. If his holding onto porn is a punishment of sorts, borne out of anger/resentment that he still has toward me, then I will only be able to solve the problem by addressing the anger/resentment he still has toward me. It will never be solved by directing the porn directly because it has nothing to do with the porn. Interesting idea.

ETA: Well, now that I think of it the porn issue wasn't exactly borne out of anger/resentment over the A because it started well before the A. It might still be about anger/resentment toward me in general though. Or it might be that even though the porn isn't necessarily about anger, his refusal to stop IS. Hmmm.

[heatherg]

He didn't say he was adopting your opinion as his own. He was acknowledging that he understood how you felt, while still respecting his own opinion.

Actually I haven't really heard him tell me something I could classify as an 'opinion'. He's just given me rationalizations.

What you believe has not been challenged. He acknowledged it.


Corri, what are you suggesting exactly? That my H acknowledges that his behavior hurts me, that he contineus to do it and that I do what? Your last few posts have challenged nearly everything I say, but haven't offered any alternatives to my approach with this. It is certainly not your obligation to do so, but I am not saying at all that the way I'm currently handling this is the ONLY way to handle it. If you have suggestions, by all means, I am asking to hear them. That's what this thread is about. Given I feel the way I do, how can I best handle the situation?

Well, that's what YOU are making it about. I'm willing to bet the farm that he doesn't see it that way.

Since I can only manage myself, what's the point of dwelling on how he may or may not see things? Remember-I'm not asking permission to feel the way I do and like I said above, H has not really stated any kind of defendable position on the issue. He's only confirmed that he can see where I'm coming from and then tried to rationalize the behavior.

[GonnaGoBlind]

Or the porn could be not about you at all, which I think is much more likely. Could just be a habit that is hard to quit, KWIM?

[Burgbud]

I doubt I can do this in the fifteen minutes I've got but it's the Friday before a holiday weekend, so why not give it a stab?

Mojo quotes from another thread:

However, what I have learned with hindsight is 20/20 vision is that what I coulda/shoulda done was started to live (enact boundaries, reveal my preferences) within my seriously flawed marriage as if I was living within my ideal marriage not just my ideal sex life. ... If you can't talk openly with your spouse about sex, desire, love, your relationship, your preferences and choices that need to be made regarding these issues then your marriage is rife with fusion and s*cks like a lemon.

Whenever the porn topic comes up in your thread you always get folks who seem to be telling you that porn isn't as big a deal as you make it out to be. But you say, and you're entirely correct, that porn is exactly as big a deal as you make it out to be. I don't have a problem with that and I suspect that Corri, at least, doesn't either.

I have some suspicions about you, too. I suspect that if everything else was wonderful in your marriage and you felt very emotionally connected to H in other ways, the porn wouldn't bother you much. I suspect that if H got hit by a bus or hooked up with a stripper and ran off to Mexico and you subsequently found the man of your dreams who was perfect for you in every way except he liked his porn, it wouldn't bother you much. I suspect that porn bothers you a lot because sex is the area where you've long felt the most emotionally connected to your H. You guys struggle to find an emotional connection anywhere else but you've always had it in your sex life, and the porn leads you to question whether you've even got that. There's now nowhere in your marriage where it's just you and him, connected.

That doesn't make porn the issue in your marriage. It does make it a big issue to you, understandably.

As for suggestions as to what you might do, I'll offer some. Do what Mojo says she coulda/shoulda done. Start living your life. If you want to f#ck your husband then f#ck your husband. Don't bother for one second whether it's an undeserved reward for him, that's where you're going off course. It's about you. If what you really want is to make love but when you see him you don't want to make love *to him*, then don't. That's about you, too. Can he make it any more clear that he's going to do exactly whatever it is he wants to do, regardless of what you might see as you punishing or rewarding him?

Is there ever one second of the day when he's not him? Is that one of the things that you find attractive about him?

So let me ask...are you scared to be who you really are in your M because your H doesn't like who you really are? If that's the case, how good are you at being what he wants you to be?

In however much more time you're willing to give to your M, do you owe it to him to show him the real you and let him make the decision to love you or not based on that, rather than on how well you can meet his vision of who you should be?