My other thread has locked, here is the last post on that thread, from Corri:
Heath:
Quote: Well, I have withdrawn from the R quite a bit currently. We haven't had sex in weeks. That's pretty far from where I'd like to ultimately be in our M, however, I'm not convinced that it's an entirely poor choice as a route for getting to where I want to be.
As you have probably noticed, the porn issue seems to surface and then go back under the rug, then surface again and it has become a cycle. Most recently something came up in conversation that was an easy opening to ask him if he was still up to his videos and internet activity.
I've been nodding all the way through this.
Quote: He said he didn't know. I said 'Well, that's all the answer I need because it tells me everything I need to know'. I have been distant ever since.
Okay, if I knew how to do it in print, I'd sound the 'air raid' siren right here. In any event. I was nodding until this point. PROBLEM.
POP QUIZ: Review the scenario above. WHO introduced the problem? Who continued the problem?
Quote: I have been distant ever since.
Why? What is being distant doing for you? How is it getting you closer to YOUR goal?
Quote: I was very bitter at first, making a lot of sarcastic remarks to him, etc. Although I got a glimmer of satisfaction from it,
OOoooohhhhh... BTDT. Doesn't it feel GOOD, at least until you see you aren't closer to your goal, but probably further away.... (dam it)...
Quote: that behavior didn't make me feel like the person I wanted to be.
Excellent. I KNEW you were a smart chick.
Quote: So after I pushed the limit one night (at one point, he told me I was a "suspicious pig"), I told H that I would try not to be so bitter about it, but beyond that I didn't know what else to do.
Okay. Honest. No comment on his behavior.
Quote: The snooping doesn't make me feel like the person I want to be either. So, I have quit most of that and need to completely unconcern myself with what's he's doing or not doing so that I quit it entirely. I will need to depend on him to either tell me that his attitude has changed if in fact that ever happens.
Excellent.
Quote: When I first distanced myself, I was also feeling resentful because I WANT to be sexual but I'm not feeling like I want to be sexual with HIM right now
Cool
Quote: as a result of his actions.
Problem. Why in the world would you EVER give him the power to control YOUR sexual urges? Or is this a convenient excuse?
Quote: But, I've gotten better with it as I've accepted that this is my decision.
K. So stop blaming HIM. You need sex. What's wrong with that?
Quote: I've been kind and understanding with myself. Right now, I do not FEEL like having a sexual R with H.
Stop. Right. There. The rest of the sentence... I can call B.S. on you for, but, it's far better if YOU do it:
Quote: if he is also going to pursue something outside of us without telling me what it is. Right now, I FEEL that if he wants to have porn, then fine. I release him. He will either get sick of it or he won't. At the point he doesn't, well I guess he's made his choice. If it wasn't me, then I guess I'll have to figure out where to go from there.
Whoa. You are clouding the issue. You are SO MUCH MORE WOMAN than anything he'd see in a porn. HELLO. You just might not feel that, on your own?
Quote: Now, those are my feelings.
Yes. They are YOUR feelings, and have NOTHING to do with the price of tea in China, unless you SAY they do.
Quote: I haven't spoken them out loud before now because I haven't entirely determined whether or not I can go long term in a R with no sex.
HUH? Where did THAT come from? Why does the sexual R you have with your H have anything to do with any of that other stuff?
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
I guess what I mostly have at this point is questions....
Given that you want to move forward and get past the historically adversarial, currently withdrawn nature of your relationship ...
Have you *told* your husband, in plain english with no circumlocution, that you would love to share watching porn with him again, if he was willing to forgo his private viewing?
Have you *told* your husband in the same straightforward way that you want to have sex, but you are losing the desire to have sex with him because of his porn and/or his secrecy about it, and this saddens you?
Have you told him that you are imagining all sorts of awful things about the content/frequency of his viewing, and are willing to be calm (if not happy) about whatever the truth might be, but it's better than flailing around in the dark? (are you?)
Have you *talked* about the fact that you haven't had sex in weeks?
What does *he* think about all this? I'm not saying his opinions/emotions about all this should determine yours, but do you even *know* what his are, or are you assuming?
Maybe I have the wrong idea of the situation, but if you can't have open rational discussion about all this, however difficult, how will you ever break these impasses?
Certainly, it's progress that this current cycle takes the form of withdrawn politeness as opposed to open warfare, but surely that's not the ultimate goal. ....
"Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock." -- Frank Herbert
Quote: He said he didn't know. I said 'Well, that's all the answer I need because it tells me everything I need to know'. I have been distant ever since.
Okay, if I knew how to do it in print, I'd sound the 'air raid' siren right here. In any event. I was nodding until this point. PROBLEM.
POP QUIZ: Review the scenario above. WHO introduced the problem? Who continued the problem?
It depends on how you define the problem. To me, the problem is that his independent viewing of porn is occurring. Me mentioning it certainly didn't create that problem. With that being said, I can see that I wasted an opportunity to possibly discuss the issue. I think I need to be careful with situations like the above because I created a situation where the issue was broached, but I didn't take the opportunity to see if I could do something constructive with it. That is a mistake because I really should limit the number of times I approach this subject or it will merely become one of those issues where he hears "blah, blah, blah". So, if I was going to in fact bring up the issue, I should have used the opportunity to my advantage (to at least communicate a few things and get a few things on the table) as opposed to just opening the wound and then walking away. If you're defining the problem as the distance I've maintained in the R, I'm not entirely convinced that is a problem.
Why? What is being distant doing for you? How is it getting you closer to YOUR goal?
I guess sometimes you have to get further away from your goal before you can start to approach it. Being distant is allowing myself to detach some from this issue, which I really need to do. Being distant is hopefully giving H the opportunity to assess the situation in his own way.
as a result of his actions.
Problem. Why in the world would you EVER give him the power to control YOUR sexual urges? Or is this a convenient excuse?
He certainly does not control my sexual urges, because believe me, they are still there. But his actions can have an impact on whether or not I choose to act on those urges with him.
K. So stop blaming HIM. You need sex. What's wrong with that?
Yeah, I'm struggling with this too. I'd like to be able to say that he can't have both porn and me. He needs to take his pick or wear himself out of MB to girls on a computer screen. It's a problem though because it deprives me of something I need. I'm depriving myself. But there needs to be consequences for his choices. It FEELS right to say, based on my feelings about the issue, you can't have both.
Stop. Right. There. The rest of the sentence... I can call B.S. on you for, but, it's far better if YOU do it:
Well, ok. I don't FEEL he's entitled to sex with me because I FEEL like he's made his choice and he can't choose both.
Whoa. You are clouding the issue. You are SO MUCH MORE WOMAN than anything he'd see in a porn. HELLO.
Exactly. That's why I feel confident that by telling him he cannot have both would place him in the 'crucible' so to speak and then he would have a choice. It seems to me if he chooses porn, he could not live with that decision long term. If he can, well I guess it's up to me to make my decision next.
I haven't spoken them out loud before now because I haven't entirely determined whether or not I can go long term in a R with no sex.
HUH? Where did THAT come from? Why does the sexual R you have with your H have anything to do with any of that other stuff?
I haven't entirely decided that it does. But it sure feels like the proper choice to give on the matter.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
Have you *told* your husband, in plain english with no circumlocution, that you would love to share watching porn with him again, if he was willing to forgo his private viewing?
No, I haven't.
Have you *told* your husband in the same straightforward way that you want to have sex, but you are losing the desire to have sex with him because of his porn and/or his secrecy about it, and this saddens you?
No, I haven't.
Have you told him that you are imagining all sorts of awful things about the content/frequency of his viewing, and are willing to be calm (if not happy) about whatever the truth might be, but it's better than flailing around in the dark? (are you?)
No, not quite like that. Yes, I am flailing around in the dark. Our conversations about this issue have been both productive and non-productive, but the times they have been non-productive have often been a result of him flat out telling me that the topic is off the table for discussion. He simply won't answer questions. So, I'm pretty sure he's aware that my mind is filling in the blanks.
Have you *talked* about the fact that you haven't had sex in weeks?
One guess......no
What does *he* think about all this? I'm not saying his opinions/emotions about all this should determine yours, but do you even *know* what his are, or are you assuming?
We have discussed the issue a few times. My very first post on my last thread was about one of the only constructive conversations we've ever had about the issue, but we have had many others that didn't go so well. If you go back and read that post, you will get a better idea of what H thinks about all this.
Maybe I have the wrong idea of the situation, but if you can't have open rational discussion about all this, however difficult, how will you ever break these impasses?
I completely agree. Talking is now always the best solution for us, for two reasons in particular. One-H does not like to talk and two-we are not very good at it. That doesn't mean that talking is off the table as a solution to some of our issues, it just explains why it doesn't always work. I am not very good at communicating my feelings. I get angry faster than you can pull your finger away from a hot stove. When I get angry, I get snide, sarcastic and cold. But it's all because I'm hurt. I recognize this, I'm trying to change it and I've told H about it so that he can understand my anger a bit better. But my point is that we still struggle with communication. H is afraid of my reactions and he doesn't like to talk anyway. The ONLY way he will talk is if he feels safe with me and I have to be in a really good place in order for him to be safe with me.
So, if I can get myself to a good place, maybe we'll be able to discuss it. And if I can figure out what my boundary is exactly and how to implement it, then the discussion can be a productive one.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
Karen, If you're out there reading, I am going to be in DC on September 26th and it is a possibility that a few of us will get together for dinner. Interested? By all means, anyone else who lives in the area and would like to come, please let me know.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
H is afraid of my reactions and he doesn't like to talk anyway. The ONLY way he will talk is if he feels safe with me and I have to be in a really good place in order for him to be safe with me.
Maybe one way to get him to open up would be to get him a copy of "No More Mr Nice Guy," "Stop Walking on Eggshells" or "The Verbally Abusive Relationship." Those books might feel empowering and validating to him. Even though he will read them with you in mind as the culprit, they could be a start. Then maybe later he can open his mind to other books.
Just going to mention somethings about porn, maybe you can get something from it if not well it'll probably do me a bit of good to write this out.
First exposure to the world of illicit images was in kindergarten, a friend had stolen a playboy from his dad a bunch of us boys got together and would look at them in the woods. We got caught not much of a big deal was made but I felt like something was up with the secrecy that was around it. My next recollection of this was finding a pamphlet of sex toys in my dads tool case, caught again but it was my dad who got in [censored] I was 9 or so.
At about 11 my friends step dad who was a biker dude had a huge collection of porn mags in the basement that we three guys would just take and checkout in our fort. This is all before I had masturbated or even thought about it. Porn was something that was completely part of an apparently secret "male world".
I know that my experience probably isn't unique. I do think that beyond the escape from feelings that escaping into porn and fantasy can accomplish there is some thing else. I don't know if I can articulate it exactly but it seems in many ways it can be an attempt to reconnect with a sense of the masculine.
To me, the problem is that his independent viewing of porn is occurring.
But that is YOUR problem, not his... given that you recognize that your opinions differ on the matter. The fact that he is being discrete about it says to me that at least he recognizes your opinion as valid. Him lying about it is just avoiding the fight he knows will come IF he is honest with you. Because.... you WANT your problem with his porn watching to BE his problem.
Quote:
If you're defining the problem as the distance I've maintained in the R, I'm not entirely convinced that is a problem.
It isn't... unless you are distancing because he is not behaving in the way YOU want him to. That's just a version of stomping your foot.
Quote:
I guess sometimes you have to get further away from your goal before you can start to approach it. Being distant is allowing myself to detach some from this issue, which I really need to do.
That I can see. Dropping THE ISSUE, but not all EC, for the punishment does not fit the 'crime.'
Quote:
Being distant is hopefully giving H the opportunity to assess the situation in his own way.
That... is manipulative.
Quote:
He certainly does not control my sexual urges, because believe me, they are still there. But his actions can have an impact on whether or not I choose to act on those urges with him.
Yeah, they can. I'm not sure what actions you are talking about, tho.
Quote:
Yeah, I'm struggling with this too. I'd like to be able to say that he can't have both porn and me.
You can say it. What you get as a result of saying it, tho...
Quote:
He needs to take his pick or wear himself out of MB to girls on a computer screen.
He needs to, or you need him to?
Quote:
It's a problem though because it deprives me of something I need.
No, you are depriving you.
Quote:
But there needs to be consequences for his choices.
This is still a control issue for you... you are attempting to control his behavior, his feelings and his beliefs. If he doesn't do it the way you want him to, then you think it should be only right and fair that he accept YOUR punishment.
Quote:
It FEELS right to say, based on my feelings about the issue, you can't have both.
It feels good to me, to indulge a hissy fit every now and then... but the hissy fit doesn't get me anywhere.
Quote:
Well, ok. I don't FEEL he's entitled to sex with me because I FEEL like he's made his choice and he can't choose both.
Yeah... and look at that sentence. That's all **I** statements. With projection onto him.
Quote:
Exactly. That's why I feel confident that by telling him he cannot have both would place him in the 'crucible' so to speak and then he would have a choice. It seems to me if he chooses porn, he could not live with that decision long term. If he can, well I guess it's up to me to make my decision next.
Yeah, and if you are going to go that route, you'd better be willing to back it up. Otherwise, you are just making threats... and I don't no many people that respond to well to those.
I still don't think Porn is the issue, btw. But. That's just IMO.
