Where is my wife?

[Cobra]

Chrome,

There is a problem with that. During my EA, I did pour out my fears to her, so now the "well is poisoned" so to speak. I used to just sit there in the room and cry and cry and then later tell her how much I wanted her to need me and want me and blah blah.

Yep, that poisoned the well, but NOT because you were being vulnerable. You weren’t. You were trying to manipulate her into rescuing you. You were on your pity pot and she knew it. To me this says she has the strength to give you what you want but she also has the sense to know that you have not truly asked for it.

I feel sick just remembering all that. Every time since then that I have expressed my fears or feelings of depression, she has retreated. Can you blame her? She can't be my "soft place to land" because I ripped her to shreds by trying to forcibly land on her.

I believe that your display of “remorse” was only you feeling sorry for yourself and she knew it. Think of it this way, when you see someone who is down on him/herself on this board, you can sense how much is self pity and how much is real depression. The depression draws a lot of sympathy on the board. The self pity draws a lot of confrontation. The board can see through the difference. Your wife can too.

What made this so obvious in your situation, at least IMO, was the sudden turn around from depression to the alpha male thing. Have you EVER seen anyone in your life switch gears like this and do a complete 180 that was a true, permanent change? No one does this. It might happen as a training exercise, but even then the changes take a long time to implement and a person can vacillate back and forth. Your wife knows you were working on yourself but there was no way for her to know what the outcome would be. You were resolved in your efforts but that does not mean she had to be. She was cautious, she withdrew, and now it seems her instincts were right. I don’t blame you for ding the alpha male thing. I think it is VERY important to do. But you do it for YOU, not to convince your wife that you have somehow transformed. If you are disappointed that she has not responded to the new Chrome, then what does that say about your original motives?

I do see your points, but I think you are not hearing all of what Blackfoot is trying to tell me and others. He doesn't want me to build a paper shell around my insecurities. He was trying to get me to see that my insecurities were based on false premises and that until I am true to myself and who I really am, I will never succeed. He never advocating me to really fake it. The "fake it till you make it" is not really about faking it. Its about trusting your true self above the false self that your low self-esteem is lying to you about. If that makes any sense (head still swirling).

I do understand Blackfoot’s perspective, but I not sure you do, based on this paragraph. As I stated above, your reason for making these changes is to eventually gain attraction from your wife. Blackfoot does not have this as a purpose, His aim is to be true to himself and let the attraction come from wherever it may. Maybe that is your wife, maybe not. He is single now and is not trying to attract a particular person. He is waiting for the right person who will find his persona to be a show of both strength and vulnerability. This will require a very confident and secure woman.

Your situation is not that. Your wife still has a lot of growth in front of her. A man like Blackfoot will likely turn her off. I would be surprised if she would feel connected and loved by some of his actions or words. She is still too enmeshed. A man who is too differentiated might feel uncaring to her. I think he told you as much. IMO there is a big difference in your objectives and that of Blackfoot. So the process you each use should be weighed carefully.

Cobra:
Yet by playing the strong, alpha male, you never admit to your fears and never trust her enough to expose your fears to her. How should she interpret this?

Chrome:
That I am a liar?

Now THIS is one place where the alpha male needs to come out. This is the type of self pity comment that your wife can see right through. There are plenty of ways to respond to my question but you chose a self deprecating one. She might think that you are a liar, but I bet she really doesn’t want to. I bet she really wants to find any other answer than that. To say her husband is a liar is not too appealing for any woman. But what she probably can handle is knowing that her husband has been hurt, is scared, loves her very much, and does not want to lose her. THAT answer she can handle. So let your words and actions reflect the truth so she doesn’t have to finagle a way to believe that you aren’t a liar. Don’t make her be responsible for always rescuing you.

Will showing that I do have times of weakness help her believe in my strength.

As far as I know, that is what true strength is, don’t you think?

One last thing… do you get any exercise?

[chromosphere]

So what you're going for here is not continuous crying like before, but simple, calm requests of things she can do to help you feel better. She knows something's wrong; you can't hide that. What you can do is show some strength as you bear up under it and talk about it, and some openness as you enlist her help without expecting her to figure out how to make you feel better all on her own with no useful input from you.

This comment (as well as others by Ket, cac, and Cobra) have been EXTREMELY helpful to me ... so thanks. I do see the difference between my crying fests followed by extreme neediness and being vulnerable. I am thinking of saying something like the following ...

"W, I know you can tell that I've been down lately as you have sometimes asked me if I'm feeling ok. I have been down, I've been struggling with some things. I know in the past that when I have struggled I haven't handled it very well, and have unduly placed burdens on you that were not yours to bear. I want you to know that this time I am not looking for you to rescue me. I want you to understand and know me as much as I want to understand and know you. I want to share with you my struggles so that you understand what inward thoughts are influencing my outward actions. If you feel like you can offer some help and/or comfort to me, I will appreciate it. I am trying to be a better man, for myself and my family."

That is a bit too wordy, but I'm still letting it gel in my head. Thanks again.

Chrome

[chromosphere]

Also yes. I'm sure your wife is a smart lady, who knows that no one is superman, all strong all confident invulnerable. If you don't show your soft underbelly, she may question whether the whole thing is soft underbelly under some cheap costume armor.

Thats kinda what I was thinking. I'm just worried about past association, perhaps too much. Like I said, I get a little sick to my stomach thinking about how I acted in the past, and there have been a few times when I have gotten a little emotional more recently and I can see her shrink back a bit from it. I just need (as I said to Eddie just now) to separate being emotional from being needy. I'm an emotional guy, that will never change. I just don't need to place the burdens of my emotions on someone else, just accept their help if offered freely.

If you distrust your ability to maintain emotional balance during the discussion (always a strong possibility when in or around The Pit), you might try email or a letter instead. Although I think a face-to-face would be the first choice -- a calm yet vulnerable demeanor can speak volumes for you if you can pull it off -- but you will be the best judge of that based on your past interactions.

Well, I can guarantee that I will get a little teary-eyed. But that might not be a bad thing. If I get teary-eyed, but DON'T go into a needy crying fest, that might illustrate the changes I have made better than anything else.

Thanks for your comments.

Chrome

[chromosphere]

Ohhh, yeah. Its like a ball and chain, to me. The overall effect kind of sneaks up on you, though...hard to describe. subtle, in a way. I only realized how bad it was when one day, I was feeling unusually chipper...I was doing a very physical job for a customer that I usually dreaded doing, because it was so physically demanding. (literally, an "uphill, both ways" situation), and I did it in an unusually short amount of time...as I was wrapping things up, I was huffing and puffing...(but in a good way...kind of "exilarated"), I noticed my heart rate was kind of fast, and then it dawned on me: I forgot my pill thismorning.

Thanks for all this info. I knew I had been feeling off since my "heart attack", but I couldn't really put a finger on it. I can relate EXACTLY to the story you told.

hmmm. I'm no doc, but I can't help but wonder...considering the amount of stress you've been under, if this wasn't an anxiety-induced attack, and might be something you can put behind you one day. Among other things, I think that living under your in-laws' thumb is harming you, much more than you realize.

Yeah, when I was talking to the doc at my appt recently, he asked if I was under a lot of stress at work. I said not really, I love my job, but I did mention I had some family issues and just kinda nodded his head and moved on.

yeah. we call that the "beta-blocker fog".

Hmmm, I have had that swirling thing while depressed before, but it does seem a bit amplified lately.

oh, and, good luck with the basketball. (I'm trying not to laugh to hard at the thought of myself doing that. wonder if there's some way to incorporate a barcalounger into that activity?)

Perhaps use the Barcalounger as a stepping off point for a massive slam dunk?

Chrome

[chromosphere]

Yep, that poisoned the well, but NOT because you were being vulnerable. You weren’t. You were trying to manipulate her into rescuing you. You were on your pity pot and she knew it. To me this says she has the strength to give you what you want but she also has the sense to know that you have not truly asked for it.

To be frank, I'm not convinced yet of her strength to "give me what I want", but don't take that as W-bashing. She hasn't exactly had the best M role-models so she is having to do a lot of learning about R's herself. Neither of us has been particularly strong in the past.

I believe that your display of “remorse” was only you feeling sorry for yourself and she knew it. Think of it this way, when you see someone who is down on him/herself on this board, you can sense how much is self pity and how much is real depression. The depression draws a lot of sympathy on the board. The self pity draws a lot of confrontation. The board can see through the difference. Your wife can too.

Good point.

I don’t blame you for ding the alpha male thing. I think it is VERY important to do. But you do it for YOU, not to convince your wife that you have somehow transformed. If you are disappointed that she has not responded to the new Chrome, then what does that say about your original motives?

I understand that, and primarily it has been for me. And she has responded to the changes I made. This depressive episode really doesn't have much to do with the details of how she responded, but more to do with my own self-doubt and the vicious cycle it can cause. In the past I would just doubt myself excessively. Now I doubt myself excessively and am aware of how that sabotages my efforts, which causes more doubt, etc. I'm not trying to say that I am not somewhat disappointed that we aren't fecking like bunnies all the time, but I am very aware of the progress we (and she) has made on our R. We still have a ways to go though, and sometimes that overwhelms me as much as it overwhelms her.

I do understand Blackfoot’s perspective, but I not sure you do, based on this paragraph. As I stated above, your reason for making these changes is to eventually gain attraction from your wife. Blackfoot does not have this as a purpose, His aim is to be true to himself and let the attraction come from wherever it may. Maybe that is your wife, maybe not. He is single now and is not trying to attract a particular person. He is waiting for the right person who will find his persona to be a show of both strength and vulnerability. This will require a very confident and secure woman.

I disagree to some degree. I understand blackfoot's perspective better than you think, and I am very aware of how different our lives are and how our life motivations have differences. I also (as I thought I stated clearly) know that he is trying to change me for me, which will build attraction. I do often focus too much on the attraction side, but that is the inherent neediness that I am trying to slowly weed out of my psyche. Intellectually I do understand his POV very well. Emotionally, its still working its way in.

Now THIS is one place where the alpha male needs to come out. This is the type of self pity comment that your wife can see right through. There are plenty of ways to respond to my question but you chose a self deprecating one. She might think that you are a liar, but I bet she really doesn’t want to. I bet she really wants to find any other answer than that. To say her husband is a liar is not too appealing for any woman. But what she probably can handle is knowing that her husband has been hurt, is scared, loves her very much, and does not want to lose her. THAT answer she can handle. So let your words and actions reflect the truth so she doesn’t have to finagle a way to believe that you aren’t a liar. Don’t make her be responsible for always rescuing you.

Point taken. I have melded my answer to yours and others comments in a response to Crazy Eddie above. Please feel free to comment.

One last thing… do you get any exercise?

Not as much as I should, and based on my discussion with cac I'm starting to see that there is an external reason for my ennui that I need to battle. Now that I am aware it is there, I think I can get around it.

Chrome

[MJontheMend]

Because I recognize the fact that I have some definite issues with allowing myself to be vulnerable, I have been thinking quite a bit about the difference between vulnerable and weak. I have not solved the riddle but I am pretty certain that you can't be vulnerable when you are feeling weak. Gandhi made himself vulnerable. A mother bear protecting her cubs will make herself vulnerable. Martin Luther King made himself vulnerable. A playwright who threw herself heart and soul into her work is vulnerable to criticism on opening night. If she is differentiated she will know how to hold on to herself, ride her boats over the waves, when the criticism arrives but that doesn't change her essential vulnerability. So if Chrome is essentially feeling weak he will not be able to allow himself to be vulnerable.

I think Cobra is wrong when he implies that a woman like Chrome's wife wouldn't be attracted to BF. That's like saying a poorly differentiated man wouldn't be attracted to Beyonce. He might doubt his ability to attract her but...However, there is a problem with the line that BF is promoting and the problem is that a poorly differentiated man who starts trying to attract women in the manner suggested by BF will attract women but he will despise them for being attracted for that reason. Just like a poorly differentiated woman who went and got a boob job just to attract men would despise the men who started drooling over her boobs. Men and women can't change their essential sexual functioning or the basic laws of attraction and it's not enough to simply understand how attraction works. You must gain objectivity, acceptance and empathy if you want to have a functional sexual relationship. BF's difficulty at the moment, IMO, is that he doesn't have enough empathy for the poor little monkey girls he is f*cking but OTOH it is entirely possible that is due to the fact that they are lacking in self-respect and self-awareness themselves. Maybe if one of them were to confidently signal "Damn straight you better wear some leather and use those biceps if you want to f*ck me but you better bring some flowers and be prepared to cuddle too." or something like that?

[OG_Lou]

To support Chrom's statement, "bigger is not always better," let me insert my $0.02 here.

Chrom, I have to take my time and I KWYM when you say bigger isn’t always a prize to be desired.

Chrom
It is necessary for her to allow me to penetrate a little bit, then wait a bit, then penetrate a little more, etc. Sometimes it helps to oscillate back and forth between the farthest point we have achieved and just barely penetrating for awhile, then trying to go a little deeper, etc


First off, I am not that big, just average and I am fine with that.

Chrom's problem isn't his size, it is a mismatch between him and his W. Chrom, no penis reduction, OK? There are vaginal dilators available. That seems like the logical thing to do. I read some forums where women had the too tight problem and most overcame the problem within a couple of months. The woman has to get past her hang-ups to get this job done. Can the H help? Sometimes he can, but she has to want his help from what I read. It’s mostly up to the woman, no matter how you look at it.

BB and I used to match, but now she is getting smaller as she ages so we have a similar problem as Chrom has.

The less sex a couple has in a situation like this, the worse the problem becomes. So Chrom, you know what you need to do. Do it as often as you can.

So anyone that thinks bigger is better, well sometimes it might be better, depending on the individuals, and sometimes it is a problem.

A question, concerning men in general, does bigger feel better to the man if there are the same amount of nerve endings, no matter the size large or average? Maybe, maybe not. I haven’t experienced a different size myself.

All I know is I don’t need a limo when a mid-size car gets me where I want to go.

What counts first is the mental connection the people have for each other and how much they desire the sexual encounter. I think it is more important that parts fit and "the motion in the ocean" really counts. Size can be a factor, but fitting, matching really counts.

Lou

[chromosphere]

Dang I've got a MAJOR case of dontgiveashiatitis. Not sure what is causing it, but there are two possible reasons. (1) it is my way of pulling out of the Pit, kinda of a transition period in which my trying to bonk myself out of the Pit bleeds into other areas (2) I'm getting REALLY pissed off at my FIL. We are in the process of building a sun room addition to our house, and FIL has been helping the carpenter A LOT. I am grateful for it for sure, and wish I could help more, but I have been busy. There is a reason I got a 6.5% salary raise last year and stand to make a similar one this year. There is a reason I had $30K in extra salary from external grant work and such. And that money is a big part of where our home remodeling is coming from, in addition to being necessary b/c a professor's salary at a small college is not enough to support 3 kids easily. I'm getting really tired of the guilt trips and demands he is laying on me. Its like he has no respect for the work I do, which would not be surprising given that he comes from a "sweat of the brow" farming type background. He will ask me to do something, and I will tell him I will get to it as soon as possible (the latest thing is I need to stain and finish some beadboard for the celing of the sunroom). Well him and the carpenter will get to a point where they need something (the beadboard in this case) and he will start pestering me to come home early for work, instead of THEM taking a day or so off (which the carpenter probably wouldn't mind, as he is an older fellow and suffering from prostate cancer) to give me time to find a block of time to get home. Any of you who have done staining and finishing know that it is not practical to do it at night, as you get bugs stuck in the stain/finish, or I would do it at night.

I know, I'm just biatching big time. But I'm about to stop being Mr. Nice Guy and let him have it. I have endured enough lack of respect about who I am and what I do from both MIL and FIL. The problem is that FIL was laid off about 3 months ago and hasn't found a new job yet, so I've been trying to be sensitive about not saying "I have a job to do" as that could be taken the wrong way. Ugh. I'm still such a friggin adolescent.

/rant{over}

MJ and DIY, I'll respond to your posts in detail soon. You both gave me some really good comments though.

Chrome

[OG_Lou]

Chrom, can you pay someone to stain/finish coat the wood? Will FIL accept a per hr wage? If not FIL, maybe one of FIL's friends?

I have done staining at night, in damp weather, not the best but for some beginning coats, it works.

My final top coat ((Urethane satin or gloss) is done when conditions are right. The not so right conditions, where bugs or moisture are problems, most imperfections can be buffed/sanded out or touched up.

Lou

[oldtimer]

Chrom,

Have you read any books on boundaries? (There is a good short easy intro by Anne Katherine.)

How about: "FIL I really appreciate your help with this project and I love you for wanting to help us out. I need to be clear though and ask you to listen to something that may be hard for you. I will be managing the project and its timetable myself. This is my house, my project, and I will have to manage it in a way that works for me with respect to my work and other priorities in my life. I understand that being a worker bee may be an uncomfortable role for you, so if you prefer to stop working on the project, I'll understand. It is really OK either way. I will love you either way. I just need to put a clear boundary between our R and my household busines."