Where is my wife?

[mrsc]

She should put you in herself. Actually, "The Guide To Getting It On" suggests that all women should do this most of the time.

Absolutely. Before I gave birth I was a little small, and I used to find IC uncomfortable sometimes, especially when it had been a while (too long) between encounters, so it really helped for me to do the guiding. I still do it now, even though my size is no longer an issue.

BTW -- Mirena is an IUD with hormones that is inserted usually while the woman has her period, because the cervix is slightly open then. I tried the non-hormone IUD for a while. Insertion is very quick and just a little uncomfortable. She should take Ibuprophen an hour before her appointment to help reduce discomfort from cramping.

[chromosphere]

And it wasn't a sham... if it had been, she'd have seen right through it.

That is a comforting thought, thanks.

you are not a stupid person, after all.

I'd better not answer that one right now.

Exercise helps. Sometimes standing up straighter and taller is enough to change your mindset to match.

Yeah, I'm going to be able to start back playing basketball regularly tomorrow (not as much folks around during the summer). Should help.

I'm trying to get out of the pit as much as possible before going home. Don't want my kids to see me this way.

Chrome

[chromosphere]

hmmm...did I mention that beta-blockers also cause depression??

Didn't know that, although that would explain my lethargy for the last few months.

I would imagine that they want you on this crap forever, though. do they know what caused it?

Genetics is all they came up with. They did a scan and a stress test and everything came back normal.

I might as well just dig a hole and climb in. except I'd have to pay someone else to dig the hole, because I'd have to sit down after two scoops with the shovel. ugh

That sounds about right. I don't feel bodily tired, but the swirling in my head makes it impossible to do anything coherent.

Chrome

[chromosphere]

I'm new and not real familiar with your background, but this sounds awfully like The Pit.

Yeah, I've been here before, its just been a long time. I've had a few lower-case pits recently, but nothing I couldn't handle. I'd forgotten how crappy this was.

The Pit passes .... when you've fallen in, it feels like that is the only true reality forever and everything good and hopeful is a sham .... but that is a LIE. Give it a few days and see how you feel, k?

That is the bad thing, I can't tell what is a lie and what is the truth right now. I want to believe that that things are getting better with the W, and all the data seems to point in that direction. But I have this overwhelming feeling that *I* will always be my own worst enemy. That I'll never trust myself enough to get to the point where I can trust someone else with my soul.

Again, don't know the details on your marriage, so forgive if this sounds insensitive ... but can you open up and share any of this with your wife? That you want so badly to make it all work and be the best husband and father you can, but you feel yourself slipping and you're afraid and want to reach out to her? No human being is without fear. Feeling fear does not make you weak. Denying fear is the dangerous course.

There is a problem with that. During my EA, I did pour out my fears to her, so now the "well is poisoned" so to speak. I used to just sit there in the room and cry and cry and then later tell her how much I wanted her to need me and want me and blah blah. I feel sick just remembering all that. Every time since then that I have expressed my fears or feelings of depression, she has retreated. Can you blame her? She can't be my "soft place to land" because I ripped her to shreds by trying to forcibly land on her.

I like the quote man. I wonder if Herbert was thinking of internal sources of fear when he wrote that? The pain box (or whatever that thing was the Reverend Mother strapped onto Paul) is a little different than self-doubt.

Chrome

[chromosphere]

Cobra,

I do see your points, but I think you are not hearing all of what Blackfoot is trying to tell me and others. He doesn't want me to build a paper shell around my insecurities. He was trying to get me to see that my insecurities were based on false premises and that until I am true to myself and who I really am, I will never succeed. He never advocating me to really fake it. The "fake it till you make it" is not really about faking it. Its about trusting your true self above the false self that your low self-esteem is lying to you about. If that makes any sense (head still swirling).

That does not mean you are being arrogant or self centered, but that you are creating a false self. The true Chrome is NOT bad, not deficient, not lacking or any of the other negative things you are thinking. The true Chrome has everything he needs within him, but he has been traumatize and scared to the point of fearing to make himself truly vulnerable again. That is effect of trauma, not a result of a personality lacking certain positive aspects. You have everything within you that you need.

I agree partly. And I do think that I have been gaining skills both to find the "true Chrome" and bring him out. Is it me or does anyone else here sometimes find it weird to talk about these things. The problem is that I feel like the mistakes I have made define who I am.

IMO, what you stated in your post is something you should tell your wife. Print it out and give it to her. There is a lot of honesty and vulnerability in what you say. I suspect she needs to hear this from you very badly. What you might find is that she feels similar things about herself. So try putting your deepest fears in her hands and ask her to protect you, then ask if you can do the same for her.

I'm not so sure. Like I mentioned in a previous response, I've poisoned the well a bit. I'm afraid that showing my fears will cause another retreat, and that retreat is painful to me. I have been trying to ALLOW her to retreat when she needs to, to be strong enough not to let it throw me into the pit, because that is about her not me. To show her that she can be herself and do what she needs and not worry about me. Am I erecting a barrier to intimacy with this idea?

Yet by playing the strong, alpha male, you never admit to your fears and never trust her enough to expose your fears to her. How should she interpret this?

That I am a liar?

Laying out your vulnerability as you have in your post shows that you have faith in her. Once she can truly accept your honesty (and not think it is just the latest self growth exercise) and truly gauge your sincerity, then the strong alpha male will be reassuring to her. IMO, you have put the cart before the horse and I think that is why she has remained defensive and skeptical of you. I believe you are on the right path now. Keep moving down this road to see where it takes you.

I think she is skeptical because I have never before been strong. Will showing that I do have times of weakness help her believe in my strength. I guess I could see that possibility in a strange way.

Chrome

[chromosphere]

MJ,

It took me a while to get a mental picture of what you were talking about. Doing things exactly like you said won't work exactly. It is necessary for her to allow me to penetrate a little bit, then wait a bit, then penetrate a little more, etc. Sometimes it helps to oscillate back and forth between the farthest point we have acheived and just barely penentrating for awhile, then trying to go a little deeper, etc. If that makes any sense at all. I will say that she does say that she enjoys the process when it doesn't hurt.

Chrome

[chromosphere]

mrs.cac4

Thanks for the tips. I don't mind her guiding, it actually feels good and intimate. I guess I just have this silly notion of me throwing her on the bed and having my way with her doggy-style. Some things just won't work.

I did read the website about Mirena and I do remember them mentioning about taking pain-killers for a little while. It is good to hear first person confirmation. Any other suggestions?

Chrome

[Crazy Eddie]

I'm not so sure. Like I mentioned in a previous response, I've poisoned the well a bit. I'm afraid that showing my fears will cause another retreat, and that retreat is painful to me. I have been trying to ALLOW her to retreat when she needs to, to be strong enough not to let it throw me into the pit, because that is about her not me. To show her that she can be herself and do what she needs and not worry about me. Am I erecting a barrier to intimacy with this idea?

Yes. You need to reach out to her, but it's all in how you do it. As Mojo said elsewhere:

What the cow should want in a relationship is a man who is strong enough to show some vulnerability, not a boy who needs a mother. For example, a man who isn't afraid to show that he is touched that you baked him a cake for his birthday, not the guy who whines that you didn't make dinner the way he likes it.

So what you're going for here is not continuous crying like before, but simple, calm requests of things she can do to help you feel better. She knows something's wrong; you can't hide that. What you can do is show some strength as you bear up under it and talk about it, and some openness as you enlist her help without expecting her to figure out how to make you feel better all on her own with no useful input from you.

[Kettricken]

I'm not so sure. Like I mentioned in a previous response, I've poisoned the well a bit. I'm afraid that showing my fears will cause another retreat, and that retreat is painful to me. I have been trying to ALLOW her to retreat when she needs to, to be strong enough not to let it throw me into the pit, because that is about her not me. To show her that she can be herself and do what she needs and not worry about me. Am I erecting a barrier to intimacy with this idea?

Yes. You need to reach out to her, but it's all in how you do it. As Mojo said elsewhere:

What the cow should want in a relationship is a man who is strong enough to show some vulnerability, not a boy who needs a mother. For example, a man who isn't afraid to show that he is touched that you baked him a cake for his birthday, not the guy who whines that you didn't make dinner the way he likes it.

So what you're going for here is not continuous crying like before, but simple, calm requests of things she can do to help you feel better. She knows something's wrong; you can't hide that. What you can do is show some strength as you bear up under it and talk about it, and some openness as you enlist her help without expecting her to figure out how to make you feel better all on her own with no useful input from you.

Yes, yes.

Also, you said, "I think she is skeptical because I have never before been strong. Will showing that I do have times of weakness help her believe in my strength. I guess I could see that possibility in a strange way." Also yes. I'm sure your wife is a smart lady, who knows that no one is superman, all strong all confident invulnerable. If you don't show your soft underbelly, she may question whether the whole thing is soft underbelly under some cheap costume armor.

I totally understand why you're gunshy about this, but there's a world of difference between the little boy and the man of MJ's example. If you can come to her as calmly as possible and express some of these fears and self doubts -- without melting down and expecting her to soothe you/"make it all better" -- and THEN carry on shouldering your tasks in life, I would think that would be a significant step toward reestablishing trust.

If you distrust your ability to maintain emotional balance during the discussion (always a strong possibility when in or around The Pit), you might try email or a letter instead. Although I think a face-to-face would be the first choice -- a calm yet vulnerable demeanor can speak volumes for you if you can pull it off -- but you will be the best judge of that based on your past interactions.

Even if she were to retreat by reflex initially .... if you can find the courage, I think it's well worth doing.

FWIW, I think Herbert's quote applies at least as much to our internal fears and doubts as to anything external ...

[cac4]

Didn't know that, although that would explain my lethargy for the last few months.

Ohhh, yeah. Its like a ball and chain, to me. The overall effect kind of sneaks up on you, though...hard to describe. subtle, in a way. I only realized how bad it was when one day, I was feeling unusually chipper...I was doing a very physical job for a customer that I usually dreaded doing, because it was so physically demanding. (literally, an "uphill, both ways" situation), and I did it in an unusually short amount of time...as I was wrapping things up, I was huffing and puffing...(but in a good way...kind of "exilarated"), I noticed my heart rate was kind of fast, and then it dawned on me: I forgot my pill thismorning.

Genetics is all they came up with. They did a scan and a stress test and everything came back normal.

hmmm. I'm no doc, but I can't help but wonder...considering the amount of stress you've been under, if this wasn't an anxiety-induced attack, and might be something you can put behind you one day. Among other things, I think that living under your in-laws' thumb is harming you, much more than you realize.

That sounds about right. I don't feel bodily tired, but the swirling in my head makes it impossible to do anything coherent.

Chrome

yeah. we call that the "beta-blocker fog".

I personally don't notice the mental fog so much...maybe I'm just used to it. been on stuff for a long time. Most noticeable to me is being constantly tired...unable to do much physical activity, because of the sensation of wearing lead sneakers. thats the best description I can come up with. I often have to just stop at the top of a flight of stairs...not out of breath; the stringently governed heart rate won't allow that. but, at the same time, the fact that it won't "giddy'up", even a little bit when you need it, gives that lead-sneaker effect. I just have to stop. legs get heavy...won't move.

oh, and, good luck with the basketball. (I'm trying not to laugh to hard at the thought of myself doing that. wonder if there's some way to incorporate a barcalounger into that activity?)