New and confused

[Puddle]

Hey all,

Yes, bar, I agree that as hard as all this is, the real work would begin when H decided to give it a real go.

ST, I'm mulling over the conversation regarding phone calls/contact. I can imagine saying exactly what you laid out here, but that's much more a request for respect than it is a boundary. And to be honest, I'm not sure I'm ready to pull the "and if you don't, you'll need to leave" card, which is the only card I've got. I'll have to keep thinking about it.

Regarding confidence, in general I'm much more confident than I was when we met. Of course that confidence has taken a pretty good hit in the last few weeks. And right now I realize I'm focusing on him and what he's doing/might do, etc, and that doesn't help my confidence one bit. I need to put the focus back on me. So easy to remind others, so hard to do. So Heimlich, at the moment I'm exactly where you describe being earlier. So how do I stare that monster down and move on? (Yeah, by focusing on me. Isn't there a pill?)

Today I woke up to find a book next to his computer on the dining table called "Sex in the Woods" or something, literally a guide to having sex outdoors. Charming. A week ago I bought him a book I thought he'd like, and this morning I almost said, "Hey, you didn't need to reciprocate!" Wasn't feeling funny and light enough to pull it off, though. He knew I saw it. After he left for work he called to ask if I'd taken his car somewhere last night, as the odometer had three extra miles on it. Weird (the odometer and the asking).

Heimlich, I'm totally with you that he's already gone. He's not waffling (that I know of)---for him it's done. I wish I knew exactly what his reasons are for staying, but I know it doesn't have anything to do with our M. I feel like I'm in a rather unique situation, in that DH has never uttered the word "divorce." All he's asked is that I understand that he can't be my husband in the romantic partner sense. Do you think that makes any difference to any of this? It's like we're just trying to figure out how to be roommates and maybe friends, in the same house. And it's important to me that we succeed there, mostly for the kids.

I'd like to hear all of your thoughts about whether saying what ST suggested (without the "and if you don't you have to go") would be worse than not saying anything at all. I think OT would say "that's not a boundary," but is it worse to ask for consideration without the stick than to ask for nothing?

I can tell he and I aren't in a good place to have a discussion right now. Yesterday he came home and went to sleep---avoiding me again---until the contractor arrived. He's always taken the lead on this kind of project and I'd decided to get my notes together and participate fully. When she arrived he said hello, then totally ignored her, so I took the lead. He was clearly morose, didn't speak to her the whole time, then blew a gasket at the kids because they had ruined something of his and said he had to leave. Nothing to say this morning, either.

Of course I don't know what's bothering him right now, but I'll have to carefully choose my time to talk. I know I haven't detached from this enough, though, because I'm walking on eggshells and enormously relieved when he leaves for work. This is the same way I've felt in the past (minus the irritation) when he's upset with me or depressed and silent.

I've also realized that when he's been upset with me in the past, I've wanted to fix it immediately. I have a hard time letting him have his feelings without feeling anxious and upset myself, and that's something I am certainly going to have to work on. He's going to be angry with me, I assume, and I somehow really have to get that that's about him and leave him to it. I was so upset with myself yesterday for my reaction to finding him on the phone. I went from thinking about telling him to keep it out of the house or leave to wondering if I should apologize, since I know he hates that reaction. I am clearly not very clear!

I'm just feeling really muddled right now, and I've got that knot in my stomach again. Not sure how to get rid of it. I know he's waiting for a talk, and I haven't been willing to give it to him. The DB counselor reminded me that's not my problem. In this situation, unlike you Heimlich, my instinct is to shut up, but sometimes shutting up seems so obvious (to him, I mean) somehow.

Thanks, everyone. As usual, your thoughts are welcome and appreciated!

[bar]

Hi Puddle! Get it off your chest - it is confusing. The only way I can keep focussed is to remind myself H is the confused one and that I am not responsible for his thoughts.

Last night we had a R talk and he said I was confused and didn't appreciate what was happening. I thought was is happening? Is he going to name the day? But he trotted out the same old stuff and I validated most of it but stuck to my pov on some things. Like: the past may justify your actions to you but I see it as no justification. When he said he couldn't change his feelings I quoted a book he loaned me which says you can have a change of heart and feelings.

I just thought, if this is it, I'm going to say something.
He finished by saying he had to go because he couldn't stand the guilt and depression, which magically lifts when he leaves the house.

Anyway, Puddle, you are entitled to ask for something you want, eg more consideration about the phone. Do NOT apologise because you have done nothing wrong. If you live with someone, you are entitled to draw certain reasonable boundaries without upsetting them, if you choose the right time to speak.

If he's waiting for a R talk then he has to instigate it. I had to wait over 2 weeks for last night's talk.

I pulled the if you don't you have to leave card much earlier on and he replied he'd go when he's good and ready. It really panicked him, Puddle and made me feel strong that I wasn't scared to say it.

As for the depression and bad temper, that's nothing to do with you either - his working through his own guilt and bad feelings so let him get on with it. Get busy and ignore it. Now and again I ask H if he's ok? and leave it at that.

Fact is, I am scared now, but we've reached another stage in this mess.

Sorry this is long.

take care

[Puddle]

Hey bar,

Thanks for the encouragement. I'm glad to hear you've reached another stage, even if you are scared. I think we're all scared, WASs included.

DH sent me an email today that I found rather surprising. I guess there's good news and bad news. He says since I won't tell him how I'm feeling, he can't know, but he refuses to walk on eggshells anymore around me. How bout that! He's walking on eggshells? Anyway, he says he won't worry anymore whether something he says or does might hurt me, he'll just go on about things and trust I'll tell him. I said (on the phone) I was glad he'd no longer walk on eggshells, and I will indeed stop him from telling me something I don't want to hear. He said he'll wait for my input, the door is open.

He said I'm walking around chipper and smiling, and he doesn't believe the facade for a minute. He hopes my friends are offering me support. When we discussed it on the phone later, it came across differently than in the email. He said, "I see someone who's smiling, not even painfully." I guess that's the good news. I'm doing better in that department than I thought, I guess. He implied that I'm moving on and dating (!), and I told him I have no intention of dating and something about just building the life I want. (I didn't say directly I'm not moving on.)

I told him I'd told him last week there were two things I wasn't ready to discuss: how much honesty I want regarding other people and logistics like when/how to tell the kids (I don't think he even said "whether" this time), "how much money I have to give you" (ouch), etc, and that I'm ready to talk about those. I told him I don't want to hear about his dating, and that I'd like to ask him, out of respect for me, to keep it outside the house. He didn't understand, so I clarified that I'd like him not to bring anyone he's dating here and keep phone conversations with them outside the house. I asked him what he thought, and he said he thought it was unreasonable. Said he could ask me not to talk to my friends about him at home, but would that be fair? I said, "What if I promise not to call anyone I'm dating from home?" in a joking voice. He said he didn't care. (Ouch.) He said he doesn't really have anyplace except his car, and I said, "You're right. You don't." Eventually I said, "You may think it's unreasonable, and I'm still asking you to do that." When he got home he said it wasn't unreasonable and he agreed.

On the phone I told him I was willing to talk about things like telling the kids, time, etc. I'm sure now he's waiting for me to bring it up, which I may tonight. Thoughts please?

Then he said he wanted to talk with the contractor about adding a basement unit because eventually he'll "need his own front door" and his own space. So that's the bad news, or it feels like it. Not that he's thinking about moving out, but that he wants to live HERE and do his own thing. I'm not sure I'm okay with that. Right now that feels very not okay. I didn't say anything. Is he serious? Jesus.

At home I said he'd seemed angry for the last few days. He said, no, not angry, and that was the end of that. But he's clearly something---uncomfortable, angry, who knows. So now we're at the stage where he's pissy or at least morose and I'm chipper.

The email was the weirdest thing because he was saying essentially what I've been doing: I'm not going to walk on eggshells, I'm going to do my thing, I trust you'll bring it up, blah blah blah. If I were on the outside looking in I'd say I'm the one happy and moving on and he's in a funk. He prefaced it with a bunch of mundane chit chat, which I haven't heard from him in ages.

So anyway, after all that, what do you people think? I'm very calm and maybe a little awkward talking to him about this stuff. I'm much more comfortable shutting up. And as OT says, essentially we're not in a relationship now, so no need to have an R talk.

Thanks everyone. I look forward to hearing what you think!

[Heimlich]

Puddle,

I'm back and forth working tonight, so this might be back to a bit addled -- if I ever got far from there. Just a sanity check for you:

Then he said he wanted to talk with the contractor about adding a basement unit because eventually he'll "need his own front door" and his own space. So that's the bad news, or it feels like it. Not that he's thinking about moving out, but that he wants to live HERE and do his own thing. I'm not sure I'm okay with that. Right now that feels very not okay. I didn't say anything. Is he serious? Jesus.

Thoughts flashed across my head in quick succession when I read this -- Puddle is not crazy, "Jesus" is the perfect expresion of WTF here, that's looney, is he nuts, then, what a maroon (man, I loved Bugs Bunny).

I haven't read every thread on here, but your H has got to be one of the oddest WAH ducks out there. It's hard to figure out what to say because he's not giving you anything to work with.

So, let's go with that last sentence "He's not giving you anything to work with." Really, at this point, I think you've just gotta focus on yourself. If you can handle it, stay in the same house, because he'll be able to see you becoming a better person. If you can tolerate at least an EA, keep DBing for all you're worth (I believe you said a while back that you just want some discretion, you can deal with this).

At home I said he'd seemed angry for the last few days. He said, no, not angry, and that was the end of that. But he's clearly something---uncomfortable, angry, who knows. So now we're at the stage where he's pissy or at least morose and I'm chipper.

Well, maybe a little to work with. You're not doing what he thought you'd do.

Regarding telling the kids, WTH do you tell them? Daddy is going to be dating another woman at home. Just call her Aunt Cindy? Not trying to make light (Ok, a little), but seriously, what is he expecting to say. If the kids haven't noticed anything between you, and neither one of you is ready to move out, my inclination would be to keep it under wraps for a little longer. Let them enjoy their childhoods just a few more days, you know? You two aren't throwing things at each other, so they may be sensing some tension, but don't realize how bad things are. Until you're sure what's going on, I wouldn't bring it up to them.

My 2 pennies for now.

And I'll repeat my offer, standing offer to watch football this season in glorious High-def. Drop me a line if you're ever interested -- [e-mail]

BD

[ItsKat]

Hi, Puddle.

I agree w/ Heimlich that you have a unique H and situation here.

Just to make sure I am straight on this, your H wants to stay married and in the same house, but just not be a romantic H to you and will date other people? Is that something you are willing to live with? Maybe it is something you are willing to live with in hopes of reconcilliation?

I can say that is sounds like you are really handling this well and working hard to keep a PMA. I am glad you requested that your H not carry on his OP activities at the house (phone calls, etc) and that he agreed (eventually).

As far as telling the kids, I have the same questions that Heimlich has. What has been decided? What exactly are you going to tell the kids?

Sorry I am not very helpful right now. I think I am still trying to wrap my head around this sitch.

[S.T. _I Made It!]

how old are kids? If they are teenagers, maybe it would be a good idea to discuss something because they're not stupid, they're gonna sense something is wrong. If they're much younger, then I say hold off until you guys figure what in the world your doing. okay, your H figures out that.

ya, they can come up with some weird comments huh. I remember my H saying "I'm trying to be your friend"...whatever!

if your H ever says again that he thinks your being fake, you can always say, "I guess it took a horrible experience to wake me up to the person I really want to be and I am happy about that, no matter how hard this is"

Of course actions do speak louder than words, so consistency is best on that. They usually always think it's just all a show to try to win them back and eventually you'll quit. But see, when you make these changes for yourself, it's for good, and they WILL see that eventually.

I'm really glad you told him you wanted all contact to be out of the house. I think that is a boundary... why wouldn't it be? And DUH that is not unreasonable... obviously he was just being defensive at first and then later realized how retarded he was.

hey, those knots in your stomach are just bound to occur, it's totally normal, but time will allow them to pass. As you get stronger in yourself, it will get better.

[Puddle]

Thanks, everyone. Yeah, I read and read the boards, but I haven't found a situation that's so very similar to mine yet: no talk of divorce or moving out. I think he's so far out the door (not literally, though---unfortunate compared to the basement apartment idea) that he isn't considering what I might feel about this. And as he says, I won't tell him, so oh well. He's ready to talk turkey, because, hey, we're over it, right? That sex book was a great example. In his email he said, "Hey, did you see that book? Always wondered about having sex outside and the book cracked me up!" I thought, man, you are seriously living in a parallel universe.

And I'm not sure how I feel about the basement apartment. I think having him as close as possible is best for the kids. And since I still have hope that we'll work things out, it makes sense from that angle, too. But I'm not sure how many women I'm prepared to see traipsing around (MY house MY house MY house). When I asked him to keep it out of the house, I hadn't thought about specifying not UNDER the house. Ugh. The truth is, though, that even if we were to go ahead with that, it'd be months and months at least before it were done. A maroon indeed, Heimlich. And I'm still curious about the women who'd be comfortable dating a man whose wife and kids live upstairs.

I am in no rush to tell the kids anything. They're still little, and though they may have noticed some tension (though I don't think so), they have no clue. That's one of the things we have to discuss. I'm not sure he's anxious to tell them exactly, but I have the sense that he'd like it to be out in the open. For him. And that's not really good enough. He's been sleeping in their room and the little one has complained that daddy's not asking before getting on his bed (it's HIS space). That's the extent of it. I have no idea where to start thinking about what to tell them.

So Kat, nothing's been decided or even discussed there, and your thoughts are helpful regardless of how ridiculous this situation is---your head's not the problem!

ST: I think DH has it figured out---we'll stay married and he'll live here, but he'll date (outside the house), though he says he's in no rush to start a relationship. He's certainly having an EA, if not a PA, though, already. What wife wouldn't snap that right up? The question, of course, is whether that affects the kids' lives enough that they need to hear about it. Right now it doesn't, I don't think. We'll see what he thinks when we talk about it.

And thanks for the response to the comment that I'm faking it. I might very well use it. I'm being careful to do things I want to do, so I can keep doing them. Maybe he hasn't seen me doing enough different things yet, or maybe he can't see past the cheerfulness enough to notice anything else. I can't know.

I went to see Death at a Funeral tonight, and I highly recommend it for anyone who needs distraction from a fast-moving, twisting plotline and belly laughs. Funny as hell, and man, I needed it.

Heimlich, I'd love to watch the 49ers on their Super Bowl run with you, but alas, a couple thousand miles might be a bit far to travel, even for someone who's working on getting a life. I'm jealous of your soon-to-be-new-TV. Enjoy!

Thanks, all of you, for slogging your way through this craziness with me. Sometimes I do wonder if I'm crazy, Heimlich, and it helps to hear from other people that I'm not. I'm feeling pretty good right now, which also makes me a little nervous, like okay, what next?

Thanks again. Take care, everyone.

[Puddle]

DH and I talked about telling the kids last night. I told him I didn't see any reason to tell them until their lives are affected, and that in response to the as-yet-unposed question "Why is he sleeping in our room?" the answer "Because he's more comfortable there" might be enough (and honest enough) for now. He weighed it and said, "Okay." Said he hadn't really thought about it and that made sense.

So I guess when he said there was lots to talk about, he meant he wanted to hear what I thought.

But then he raised the question of wanting to bring the kids with him with someone else. I told him I thought it was best for them to leave them out of it until he knows that person is going to be around for a while. He proposed that it wouldn't be a problem or confusing to them if they agreed to behave in a way that didn't give the kids any more information than he and I had agreed to. Said it'd be just like me taking them to the beach or camping with a friend. Oh man. What he was saying essentially was, "This is all about you and what you're comfortable with." Finally I said I would err on the side of caution when it comes to the kids.

He went on to say what if there's someone I'm attracted to and interested in getting to know better, etc. I reiterated that I have no intention of dating, and if I did, I'd do it without the kids. He made the point that he just doesn't have that much free time, so essentially he'd like to combine interests. Jerk.

He went on to start another discussion about what's going on with him, and how if I really understood it I couldn't say, "I understand but I disagree." There'd be nothing to disagree with. His latest analogy---wait for it---is that if he were to discover he's gay, I couldn't say I understand but disagree. With what? That he's gay? I agreed I wouldn't see that as a choice. He feels so strongly and clearly that, as he said, he doesn't "want to be here." So it ended up being this long-winded rhetorical argument. He desperately wants me to understand him and let him off the hook.

I actually laughed a couple times because it was so ridiculous. He said it's important that we close that gap in our versions because he's uncomfortable if we don't. I asked him specifically what I've been doing to make him feel uncomfortable, and he said "Nothing, but that kind of disconnect colors every interaction." Just knowing it's there makes him uncomfortable to the point that he avoids me. Not my problem.

I asked him what he wants from me. He said ideally a real friend and an active partner as a coparent. He asked me what I want and I said, "In this situation that you treat me with respect. And that when you think about what you're going to do in any situation, that you consider what's best for the kids."

This began another entire rhetorical argument about "what's best for the kids," he says he can't know in his "own little brain," I spend more time with them, etc, so we need to discuss things. He might think it's best to be honest, blah blah blah. He said, "For the kids it would be best if nothing changed. For example, it would be best if I were to stay in the bed so they don't notice anything." I said, "You've said you're too uncomfortable to sleep in the bed, and it would be best for them if you did. So in that case, you've chosen your comfort over what you think is best for them. That's why I asked you to consider them before you act."

Now, I don't expect him to move back into the bed, and I realize moving back in for the kids wouldn't be ideal. To be honest, though, seeing him choose them over his comfort would be reassuring.

In arguing why in his situation there's nothing to work on, he said, "You can't be another person." That's what he's been telling me in other words since the beginning. You're not what I want, can't ever be. He said he has no doubts, doesn't want to wake up later and regret that he didn't make changes to make himself happy, said even if he goes off looking for it and doesn't find it it will still have been the best thing because he needs to be true to himself. Says it would be more selfish to stay and live a lie.

He can't imagine the possibility of being happy with me, ever. Says he doesn't even want it, and how can I think that can be fixed? I said, "You're right. If you don't want it, it can't be fixed." He said, "If the wanting can't be fixed, then how can you argue that you disagree with what I'm doing?" It would make sense to be sad and disappointed, but not to disagree.

He also implied there's something wrong with me that in the face of hearing how utterly unhappy my partner is that my reaction isn't to ask myself, "Hmmm, how could I have been happy with a partner who is sooooo unhappy?" He's assuming, of course.

It was an awkward conversation. Again I asked him if he was angry, because he was clearly frustrated by my thick-headedness.

I'm tired of this going in circles, as he is. He's bound and determined to make me see the light. I told him he's right, if he doesn't want it, it won't happen, that even if he did want it, it would take a ton of work. Moot point, since he doesn't. He knows his need for understanding is selfish. I guess that email will be coming soon.

So at this point everything I'm doing really does have to be about me. I give us about a 99-1 shot right now, odds I'd be foolish to take.

Sorry this is so long. I'm working it out as I go. Ironically, part of his argument that I'm not the one for him is that I don't understand him (or that it takes too much work to), and that's what he's seeing now. So I guess I'm just proving his point, yet again.

Thanks everyone.

[Puddle]

Help please. DH, who now says he's not seeing anyone (and I believe him---he's nothing if not honest), wants to know if it's okay with me to take our kids on a rafting day trip with people we all know, including his EA. Our kids love her (my former friend) and would certainly have fun.

Considering the conversation he and I had last night about keeping the kids away from people he might be dating, I feel like I should say no. But again, these are people the kids know and like, and it's something they would enjoy. I'm not sure how I'm protecting them by not letting them go.

Thoughts? Help.

[Heimlich]

who now says he's not seeing anyone (and I believe him---he's nothing if not honest),

Let me give you a gentle tap on this rather than a 2x4. Up until the words left my W's mouth, I couldn't imagine that she would have had an A. You're H IS having an EA. To me, that's actually worse than a PA. He's confiding his emotions and hopes and whatever in someone else. I know you know this, just needed to state it here.

This is a bit of a sticky wicket, but here's my thinking. No, they can't go. Here's why. He's having an EA with this woman. Your kids don't need to see the byplay that they may have between them that you, as H and W (and their parents) don't have. There's no guarantee that their affection for each other will be obvious, but there's no guarantee that it won't be either. The chance to confuse your kids is too great in my mind.

On the plus side, maybe your H will his head on a rock and have some sense knocked back into him. He's a slippery one, your H. I read your earlier post a few times and still can't come up with a good comment for you.

BD