Went to the beach with our kids and cousins and played in the waves. Finally got S to get into the water and he loved it. Went into the water a few times with W and swam with her. She was reluctant to let me get close, but there were a few times that we brushed up against each other in the waves and I held her waist. She didn’t pull away, but also didn’t reciprocate. Went back to the house with the girls. We were planning on me going shopping and the girls going to Walmart. I was on the computer as W was getting ready. When she comes up she says the girls didn’t want to go and seemed irritated that I was on the computer and not ready to go. Told her I had been waiting for her. Go shopping and get shrimp and burgers for dinner including a grill. Get back, put the grill together and cook the shrimp and burgers. Have dinner and then lounge for a while before going to Cold Stone.
W and S start talking about W's sisters. W is talking about how her sister is with the guys she meets. How she has divorced her husband, but is still in love with him. That she is very promiscuous and is sleeping with a married cop. She mentions that she never stays with guys that are the marrying type. I’m hearing this and thinking how ironic this conversation is. A little while later, W and I start texting back and forth.
Me: Hey!! I can now text you limitlessly. Aren’t you so happy? C: woo f'n hoo! Me: You are such a biach!! But I like it. C: whatev Me: I think you need a beating for the foul language
I sent this just before we left. The whole exchange was fun and lighthearted. Even a bit flirty. I was having fun at this point. We go out to the cars for Cold Stone. W runs back in to go to the bathroom.
Me: Hurry up
After she gets back out, I tell her that if I have thought about it sooner, I tell her a private joke and we have a good laugh over this.
C: You will wait
I took this as a positive message. Wait??? Of course I’ll wait. This sounds much better than the dialog I’ve been getting from her. I reply with this…
Me: Patience is something I have lots of Me: Unbearably tempting though
At Cold Stone Me: Cute toe rings C: Thanks
On the way back Me: I will wait C: For C: I don’t know how else to say it
Ouch!! How did it turn around so quickly??? I actually ask her this in the car. Ride back in silence. At the house, we have chips and queso. Make W a vodka tonic and we listen to music and talk with S and BIL. Thunderstorm moves through and we eventually go to bed. Wake up when it is still dark. Around 5 AM. Roll towards W and slide my hand over her stomach. Lying there with her just makes me so crazy. I am tempted and so weak. She says stop please, which I do. Roll over and lay there for a few minutes. Decide I’m going to go down to the beach to try and get shots of the sunrise.
Too may clouds. Lousy sunrise. As I sit there I text W. Me: No need to say it any other way Me: Sorry for waking you this morning. C: Its okay Me: Thanks but it really wasn’t okay. I can do a better job of controlling my temptations C: Just read your first msg. What do you mean by that? Me: It was a reply to your last message to me last night C: I realize that but why send that now Me: Just thinking that’s all C: What are you thinking? Me: Too much to text
Walk down the beach for a while and then back to the house. Get there about 7:30 and all the kids are still asleep. Crawl back into bed with W. I wrap my arms around her cuddle up spooning. She doesn’t resist or tell me no. Lay there for a while. I think I sleep a little. Before she gets up, she asks me what it was I was thinking. Tell her I don’t really want to talk about the relationship for the rest of the vacation. Just want to enjoy ourselves. Ask her if she can do something for me. Ask if she’ll read the 5 Love Languages book. Asks why. Tell her I told her why before and also it would give us something to talk about. She tells me that she doesn’t want me to give me any false hope by reading the book. I’m biting my tongue. So much I want to say but won’t. Hoping she’ll read it. I’ll keep hinting.
Nice day all around. W takes the girls to do ceramics and have lunch. Get home and W and I go out to dinner. Great dinner. We talk the whole time. Very good food and good company. After dinner we drive to the Harley dealer, but it’s closed. We then drive to the beach and walk for a while. Talk, and have fun playing with the crabs on the sand. Leave the beach and go home to have some drinks on the deck. After a while, W goes inside. She’s gone for a while and I go downstairs to find her in the bathroom on the phone. She has been running a bath and gets in. I pick up the phone. She gets a bit irritated. Give that back. I scroll through to see who she last called. OM @ about 9:52 for 9 minutes. Who was the last person you called? Why does it matter? Why can’t you tell me the truth? It’s right here in the history. He’s going through a divorce and we’ve been helping each other. Blah, blah, blah. Blows up at this point. That I haven’t seen the issue for the last year after I read the journal entry. That I haven’t worked on it. But she did!!!! We went to counseling, and then she went to counseling on her own. Puts the blame on me for not fixing things. I tell her then she needs to file and I leave the bathroom.
Later I go downstairs and overhear her on the phone with friend.
“He’s a wonderful man and he loves me” “Tonight’s the first night the kids have asked me why I’m crying” “John’s wife is such a bitch, says he drinks too much, but she abuses Oxycotin. She’s being ridiculous” “And H is quoting his thing from the message boards” “ If there was no problem the guy wouldn’t have mattered”
I go out to her truck later. Open the door. She’s on the phone with OM. She says she needs to go. Tell her to stay on the phone. We have a long conversation after she hangs up. Same things over again. She’s been working on this for four years. I haven’t been there. Haven’t seen it? Tell her to forgive me for being dense and blind. That maybe the threat of divorce was the 2X4 to open my eyes. Tell her that I want the relationship to work. That I will do anything. She brings up the trust issue. “how long were you listening on the stairs?” Tell her I was sorry for not trusting her, but I thought it was justified. She asks me why I came downstairs while she was in the bathroom. Well, you just disappeared for about 15 minutes with not explanation. Thought I would go down and see what was up.
Sucks, sucks, sucks.
Talk a little about the people that I’ve been talking to online. Tell her that they are going through the exact same issues that we are. That if she could just read some of it, she would understand. She tells me that I don’t know these people. She looks at it as a farce. How do I know that what they are saying is true?
Same discussion over and over again. She’s been working on this for four years and hasn’t gotten anywhere. She’s done. I tell her to forgive me. That the past is the past and we need to focus on the future. You can’t change the past, but you can make the future what you want. Doesn’t want to hear it. Tell her that I want us to work. That I want the relationship to work. That I want the marriage to work. Talk about this evening and the dinner of her birthday. They were both great nights in my mind. We talked the whole time on both occasions. She says that it was just me talking. That she didn’t contribute. Was I blind????? How could it have been so one sided??? She’s full of crap. This is just her trying to justify that our relationship is crap. I say that there is essentially one issue that we’ve been dealing with that can be overcome. She brings up the issue of trust. Tell her that can be dealt with also. She breaks down crying. She is going to leave in the morning.
Just a few minutes ago, I hear her going into the bathroom and dialing the phone. Sounds like she’s talking to OM. “Were you sleeping” Blah blah blah. Don’t hear much more. Think she is asleep now.
Sorry about the stuff in your last post. I'm not much to advise you on that, as I am in the same boat. My W says the same exavt things. Anyone that could help our R (counselors, therapists, the books, friends) are all people who "don't know her or our sitch". It's all non-sense... even if it does work for many couples. She's just as tough as your W, and I can't stand / don't get it either. The main reason I fight for us now is my D. I'm gonna check Heim's thread too. If anything works for ya, let me know.
I do know of Mitch Fortels book, but haven't gotten it. I will now, we'll see if it does anything for me.
Me 31 W 28 D 2 1/2 Together 8 years, Friends for 13 years S Bomb fathers day 2007 Found out about EA on 07/29/07 Working on me!!!
Dis, Head over to my thread and read OT's advice to me. Might help you out. It's harsh, but helpful. Or maybe it's helpful because it's harsh.
BD
Thanks Heim, I have read most of your thread and have always been impressed with OT's bluntness. I actually clipped something from one of his posts that I think I may have quoted to my W. Or maybe it was my sister. I forget now. Anyhow it was a post saying that 99% of the threads on this board involved an OP. Opened my eyes to what I didn't want to see and I think was one of the reasons I pushed the issue last night. This all seems surreal to me at this point. In our last talk last night, I was tellling her that I want to work on the R and M. That what happened in the past is past and we need to look towards the future. She lashed out at me and blamed me for not working on the last four years.
She did her part with the therapy and now she was done.
Thank you both Heim and Dis for being there. I've been following both of your threads very closely and looking for some hope there. Right now my hopes have slipped pretty far. My W has a 9 hour drive ahead of her in which to reflect on all this.
Diss, please please, stop talking about the R. Do you think the OM is talking R talk with her. No, he's sitting there telling her to do what she needs to do and he will be there when she makes up her mind. He is validating her and listening. For god's sake stop talking and let her work out her stuff. Only talk when she initiates, only touch when she initiates, and only validate when she speaks.
I know it's hard my friend, but you must control yourself if you dont want to lose her.
Diss, please please, stop talking about the R. Do you think the OM is talking R talk with her. No, he's sitting there telling her to do what she needs to do and he will be there when she makes up her mind. He is validating her and listening. For god's sake stop talking and let her work out her stuff. Only talk when she initiates, only touch when she initiates, and only validate when she speaks.
I know it's hard my friend, but you must control yourself if you dont want to lose her. Ian
Sofar, I've been given this advice so many times on my thread, but it has not been an easy pill to swallow. Tried to pull back and give her space. Thought I was doing the right things. I know everyone on here has gone through the same situations. Its eerie how other's stories are so close to mine. Guess it just takes a while for the advice to get through our thick skulls.
Don't know if its too late at this point, but yes, my talking is done. We were on vacation this week in North Carolina which is about 9 hrs from NJ. W drove back this morning. Kids and I will go back with my S. I don't want to say its over at this point, but I told her I think she needs to leave the house. She said she won't go without the kids. Not sure where she'll go or if she'll leave at all. Should turn out to be an interesting weekend.
I know its hard dude, but you just have to do it. Vacations are tough in your position, you survived with minimal damage, now let it go and detach when you are home. Be strong, that is not only what you need, but what she needs as well.....
I'll tell you that it really does work, stop talking about the R. Regarding moving out and her saying not without the kids. Well, that's not entirely her decision is it? I hate that lingering BS that the mother is always best for the children. I'm a damn good dad and have been more involved in the day to day care of my girls than my W has. Not to say that my W is a bad mother in any way, just that I was more comfortable in that role. So, there's no friggin' natural law that says your W gets to keep the kids, regardless of what you want. Joint custody can work well, if the daycare costs don't kill you.
I hate the idea of separation, both because it's scary as hell and because of what it does to you kids, but I think some Rs get to the point that some time apart is best for all.
BD
My latest
Me: 36 W: 35 2 D: 9 and 5 T: 16 years M: 12 10/4/06: Bomb 10/5/06: Ended A 4/22/07: ILYBNILWY
quick comments, since you asked me to read your thread
The following is raw, blunt stuff, 'cause I dont have too much more time to write here. sorry,
The following stuff, is just based on things that I have read on this board, and others, about mistakes people have made trying to recover their marriage.
way back in the begnning of thread: you're misusing "as if" very badly. " I took mine off this morning and left it on the bathroom sink. I'm intending that to be part of my As If approach... that I'm okay with the idea of D. "
no no no!!
"act as if", isnt about playing mental games with your wife. It's about avoiding poisoning your own reactions, when faced with the way your wife "might react".
BAD, POISON: "I think when i come home, my wife is going to nag me. that puts me in a bad mood just thinking about it"
"Act as if:" "wouldnt it be nice if my wife welcomes me when I come home, and we have a pleasant evening? that makes me feel happy just imagining that it could happen". [Michelle's theory, is that quite often, the PMI of a good evening, rubs off on the wife, so that you DO end up having a good evening]
Quote:
You know that I want the marriage to work, and I'll do anything you need me to do to make it work. I see now though, that there is no chance of it working. It looks like there is a 100% chance that it won't work.
STOP THIS. you should never be talking like that to your wife. You are the only one who is going to have any hope for your marriage succeeding. Dont ever express doubts about your marriage to her again.
Dont tell her what to wear. you first told her she should wear a dress on one of your dates, then picked out specifically what she should wear. bad.
If she ASKED you, "what do you think i should wear", then fine.
Quote:
One strange thing she asked about was what other things had I been looking at besides the phone and computer.
that's not strange. thats screaming loudly that she is involved with another man and wants to know if you have figured out how they are communicating. Every time you reveal how you find something, she will change to doing it through another channel. If she's hiding a relationship, she will never admit it has "gone too far", so just stop asking about it.
stop asking her to read things like books and this board. that is both "pressure" and "R talk". no "hints" either. that's not an "ok kind of pressure". it's still pressure.
stop asking her about OM. it's clear that she is involved with him. you now know this. so confronting her about it, doesnt get you anything. all it does is increase conflict between you. He's getting divorced, so that he can be with her. know this, accept this... and the forget it, and concentrate on your relationship with your wife. Begging her makes things worse. Telling her "I CAN CHANGE!!" makes things worse. Telling her, "I'LL DO ANYTHING!!" makes things worse (its all a form of begging). no R talk. Less "talk", more "doing".
dont EVER tell her "she needs to file".
STOP TELLING HER things like "I think she needs to leave the house.".
bottom line: stop begging, stop talking about OM, stop being panicky.. Concentrate on being a better husband.
That's my opinion, based solely on my reading other folks' accounts of their own marriages. I'm not a counsellor or anything.
The bad news is, sounds like she already has plans to hook up with this guy as soon as he is divorced. good news is, she wont abandon your children. So she's going to be reluctant to do that, still. That gives you some time to get your act together, and show her a better side of you.
be REALLY REALLY HAPPY about this. She hasnt filed for divorce yet, but she has seen a lawyer. if you keep saying stupid things like, "you need to file", then she WILL. so quit it
ok, you may now retreat for a bit and nurse the bruises from the 2x4s I have been swinging wildly around :} sorry.
bottom line: If you can hang in there for a few months more, and gently diffuse all the really, really bad feelings you have generated in your wife over the last few months, then you may be in a much better position.
you may also be interested in reading more about the techniques at
Dom, Thanks for the blunt advice. Unfortunately, I think I may have read it a bit too late. Hopefully I will still have an oppurtunity to turn things around. I do a second post for a summary of last night after I comment on your advice.
Originally Posted By: Dom R
The following is raw, blunt stuff, 'cause I dont have too much more time to write here. sorry,
Blunt is what I need now, thanks.
Originally Posted By: Dom R
way back in the begnning of thread: you're misusing "as if" very badly. " I took mine off this morning and left it on the bathroom sink. I'm intending that to be part of my As If approach... that I'm okay with the idea of D. "
no no no!!
"act as if", isnt about playing mental games with your wife. It's about avoiding poisoning your own reactions, when faced with the way your wife "might react".
BAD, POISON: "I think when i come home, my wife is going to nag me. that puts me in a bad mood just thinking about it"
"Act as if:" "wouldnt it be nice if my wife welcomes me when I come home, and we have a pleasant evening? that makes me feel happy just imagining that it could happen". [Michelle's theory, is that quite often, the PMI of a good evening, rubs off on the wife, so that you DO end up having a good evening]
Got it. I was doing "As if" I really don't care, not "As if" everything is just fine. I've actually been trying to do the second "As if" also. Probably not too effectively.
Originally Posted By: Dom R
You are the only one who is going to have any hope for your marriage succeeding. Dont ever express doubts about your marriage to her again.
Point taken, although perhaps a little late. May have transgressed on this last night.
Originally Posted By: Dom R
Dont tell her what to wear. you first told her she should wear a dress on one of your dates, then picked out specifically what she should wear. bad.
If she ASKED you, "what do you think i should wear", then fine.
I'll defend myself a little on this one. She did ask me to pick something out for the evening
Originally Posted By: Dom R
thats screaming loudly that she is involved with another man and wants to know if you have figured out how they are communicating. Every time you reveal how you find something, she will change to doing it through another channel. If she's hiding a relationship, she will never admit it has "gone too far", so just stop asking about it.
I was thinking just what you said. Hard to really admit it to myself though
Originally Posted By: Dom R
stop asking her to read things like books and this board. that is both "pressure" and "R talk". no "hints" either. that's not an "ok kind of pressure". it's still pressure.
Another transgression last night. Ooops
Originally Posted By: Dom R
stop asking her about OM. it's clear that she is involved with him. you now know this. so confronting her about it, doesnt get you anything. all it does is increase conflict between you. He's getting divorced, so that he can be with her. know this, accept this... and the forget it, and concentrate on your relationship with your wife.
Yet another transgression. I suck at this.
Originally Posted By: Dom R
dont EVER tell her "she needs to file".
And yet another oops from last night.
Originally Posted By: Dom R
stop begging, stop talking about OM, stop being panicky.. Concentrate on being a better husband.
Great advice all around Dom. I'm hoping that I still have time.
Originally Posted By: Dom R
The bad news is, sounds like she already has plans to hook up with this guy as soon as he is divorced. good news is, she wont abandon your children. So she's going to be reluctant to do that, still. That gives you some time to get your act together, and show her a better side of you.
be REALLY REALLY HAPPY about this. She hasnt filed for divorce yet, but she has seen a lawyer. if you keep saying stupid things like, "you need to file", then she WILL. so quit it
Will try to show my better side. Today was actually good. Went bowling with kids. She kicked my butt the first round. I won the second, but she beat me on average. Fun day I thought.
Originally Posted By: Dom R
bottom line: If you can hang in there for a few months more, and gently diffuse all the really, really bad feelings you have generated in your wife over the last few months, then you may be in a much better position.
