Sorry about the long lapse in communication. I am trying to enjoy the summer, perhaps my last here, before having the nuclear discussion in September (thought around the 21st might be appropriate, halfway between day and night).
Spent two weeks with my kids at mother in law's, though I mostly had to work, and now plan to spend a week with my son at my parents'. Wife of course not interested in coming with to either, and I know she took a trip to somewhere while we were gone, but I don't really care anymore. If she wants to work on our marriage, great, but I am ready to call it quits; most anything would be better than this nothingness.
Also looking at changing jobs, 2 offers coming I am told, and upgrading salary. The financial split that occurs when you file here (and I will ask W to pay half of house costs from then on) gives me some pleasure, as she has very little income.
W was incredibly pissed off this morning at me when she couldn't start the new motor on the sailboat, blaming me and all men for the lousy design, etc. When I took over, it started within a few tries. She has no patience and a very short fuse. Never apologized, even after I helped. I continued helping her in spite of the verbal abuse.
Looking forward to a resolution of all this - .
How is your summer? Done anything special? How is your D going? Are you in good spirits?
Luke
M58, xW54 S22, D18 M 1984, D 2016 Living a new life.
I am not sure if you will see this, but I posted a response to you a while ago.
The kids are back in school since yesterday, W asked today if I wanted to talk, said no, dreading things. Have managed to put her off until after a business trip, when I return in mid-September, still sticking with the plan.
It seems she wants to keep the house, both since it is nice and for the kids sake, and to save social face. I am in much more of a nuke the whole thing mood, particularly after spending a night on the floor in the living room two weeks ago, waking up early, and hearing her get 2 SMSs at 5.30, probably from OM.
Of course I will take care of the kids, though not sure how, especially if I move to the States. I more just want to get the ball rolling and figure things out when the D is in process (unless she surprises me and wants to work on things). We have six to nine months before it is all gone, so there is some time.
If she wants to have OM move in, I am thinking of moving out but putting in webcams to monitor the place, so OM cannot be here. I would rent someplace instead - might be a good idea anyway with the current real estate market.
Anyway, how are you? Are your kids at school? How are they taking all this?
Best -
Luke
ps. Nice new name, by the way, positive feeling.
M58, xW54 S22, D18 M 1984, D 2016 Living a new life.
Try to keep it balanced for the kids but she's showing little respect for you. Focus on you and the kids and go forward that way. Compassion does not mean funding her little OM excursions or WAW lifestyle in the least. It sounds like a 180 is called for and you're really going to have to plan your talk out. There will never be a perfect time but I'm sure you'll find a right time.
good to hear from you and get your clear response. Yeah, the monetary aspect is where I want to make it absolutely clear. I imagine she has some money saved (she never put what she earned into our common account), so I can't stop her going unless I return the favor, requiring her to pay half the house costs until we move out, for example. I will not have or fund a christmas party like we usually do, no more nice stuff, no more clean outward appearance. I will take care of the kids, really the best things in my life just now, but not facilitate any more insults on her part.
Do you have suggestions how to make these last months okay for the kids? Ideally she would first see OM after we finally split.
A drink to the end of an episode -
Luke
M58, xW54 S22, D18 M 1984, D 2016 Living a new life.
It looks like W and I are going to have a 'serious talk' in two weeks, and I thought it would be good to get your thoughts on this and prepare. Any ideas you have would be wonderful.
So here we go:
Background: WAW, 45, no sex or physical contact and little affection for 3+ years, she has affair with OM starting 1-1/2 years ago. We have 2 kids, 9 and 13, married 22 years, both American but live in Sweden. Wife is an ENFP designer with a passionate temperament, me a nearly 50 INTP engineer and a conflict avoider. Her main complaint is that I am 'not strong enough and don't fight back'. I've tried the LRT for a long time, nearly always been kind and helpful, but no change. At our last talk maybe 6 mos ago, W refused to see counselor, saying it won’t help.
So I propose, as suggested above, to have a final 'I can’t take it anymore and now you have to decide' type discussion. I can go either way with her, staying or leaving, having emotionally detached enough. Here is how I think it could happen:
Location: in public, at a restaurant, other customers not known to us. Reason for public place is to keep discussion under emotional control (what do I say if she wants to discuss at home?).
Time: lunch, midweek, so kids are not home, with enough time allotted.
Basic conditions (my demands):
(Possible preface - before we start discussing, I want to say that I still love you, and to say I am going to present two alternatives, of which I prefer the first?)
Either wife
1. says she will work on our marriage and how, and 2. says she will give up her affair, and 3. will submit to an AIDS test before we possibly sleep together again.
OR
1. I file for divorce, effective in 6 to 12 months (Sweden has no-fault divorce), and 2. I possibly cut off money flowing to W, so then she pays half the house costs for the next six to twelve months. Alimony does not exist in Sweden. Kids are shared a priori 50/50. Divorce is simple, costs less than $100 total.
In either case, the kids shall be spared as much pain as possible. This year’s grades determine which high school our son can enter, so he must have a stable background. Our daughter, still a tender 9, deserves an unsullied youth as long as possible (she doesn’t want to go on vacations with just my son and I anymore, will only go 'if mama comes too'). Protecting the kids is not negotiatible in my book (she let them watch Marie Antoinette and breakfast at Tiffany’s, by the way, both of which deal with infidelity – do you think it is a good idea to break the news to the kids this way?)
Let us suppose she does not agree to the three demands. I then would immediately file for D, starting a string of events. We work against the Swedish background that splits everything 50-50, including the kids’ time after D, but that our incomes are separate from the day D is filed for. The possible scenarios are then
1. we sell the house (each person has a half), and separate. End of story. 2. she does not want to sell, but I do. She then pays me half the house value, if the OM does not move in. She cannot afford, I believe, half the house, however, so will be forced to sell (I also cannot imagine selling only half a house to anyone). 3. neither wants to sell the (wonderful, on a lake, lots of time and care put in) house. I move out, put in internet based surveillance cameras to ensure OM never enters, W remains. Positive in that my investment continues. Negative in that she would have to pay half the mortage, heating, utilities, etc, and so this probably can’t happen. I could loan her the money, with interest. Negative in that she is not out of my life. 4. she wants to sell, but I do not. I may just possibly be able to afford doing this if I get a new job. Positive in that I have a nice house and that I can kick her out of it and the garden. Negative financial aspects with big loans. 5. we rent out the house, both moving out. Positive in the investment sense.
Her desired scenario will likely be to say 'let us keep the house, you get a lover too, we hide everything from everyone, keep our social circles, and then we are both happy'. My answer would then be 'what a lie we would then be living, honey. The best thing for me, and the best example for the kids, is a house with two clearly in-love adults, who spend time and vacations together and don’t sneak out under false pretenses to have affairs. I won't accept this'. Do you have more arguments to rebut her? Do you think she will come up with other fantasy type scenarios? I'd like to be prepared.
Other arguments for splitting instead of some artificial arrangement are
O W is often unpleasant, moody, critical, uncommunicative, often irritated – who wants to be with such a person? O simplicity in finances – I can otherwise foresee disagreements on what or what not to spend money on O fresh, clean, starts for each of us O peace, finally, for me (I turn 50 this December and would like to have at least clarity on what is going to happen) O health reasons - going through this is stressful
My wife will be concerned about – keeping the house, having her new lover (who text messages lots during the day, her phone is on silent ring), protecting the kids, not losing face in our social circles, keeping those social circles, money (she makes only a little as a designer), not shocking her own and my relatives.
I will be concerned about – losing the house (I am saddened, but prepared to do this), and protecting the kids. Also, I am considering moving back to the States and changing jobs, which at nearly 50 is a big thing. Social stuff is not so important to me. I prefer to be open with people, including relatives.
One odd twist is that my job has me staying with my mother in law in California, this for weeks at a time, which is very kind and nice of MIL. It probably isn’t appropriate to continue this arrangement should we divorce, though I think I am closer to my mother in law than her own daughter sometimes (W didn’t want to come to a mini-family reunion this 4th of July, so I took the kids; during which W drove to somewhere, a fact she is hiding, presumably to meet lover while we were abroad).
Two smaller points – I turn 50 this December, and would like just a small, loving, party with my kids (and ideally shocked back to her senses W too). What do I say about this? Do I uninvite W after having filed, or let her be present, this to spare the kids?
We normally have a large (50-70) people Christmas party. Beyond entertaining our friends and acquaintances, this is a social thing. I am prepared to leave our friends completely. If I file for D, what do we do about it?
Minimize her contact with OM – for the kids’ sake and for my jealousy, I will not aid and abet her in visiting OM. This means we won’t take her to the airport (OM lives in Germany), which getting to is then a considerable pain for her. What do we tell the kids if she goes to see him? That she is on a work trip?
The other large question is how to turn off the money spigot – when and what shall be no longer paid for by me? I don’t want a continuation of our relationship based on blackmail, but I do not feel it is appropriate to pay her anything more given how I have been treated and for so long. What would you do? Shall I turn off the money immediately, completely, or just on some things? When?
Also, shall I file for D before this discussion or give her a chance? Between now and the discussion is another payday, of which she would then get 50% if I file after. It sounds cheap, I know, but that is basically how much we would owe on the mortage each at the end of October and it seems a matter of principle that she should pay her half herself.
The big problem between us has always seemed that I don't fight her - perhaps there is training in this? Maybe I could mention this as a possible solution to our problems.
Grateful for any thoughts -
Luke
M58, xW54 S22, D18 M 1984, D 2016 Living a new life.
Luke, I can't imagine being in your sitch. Give her a chance? I read that right didn't I 3 years of this. She's had a chance probably quite a few. Now you need a chance. You deserve to live life as suited for Luke to seek out new love if you so desire. I understand wanting to make M work but it takes two and DB is not a suicide pact.
I would do all the legwork as you mentioned above to get the sale of the house, D paperwork, etc. in motion so she can just sign it. You can still present it as an ultimatum but reading your sitch I wouldn't. Like the Last Last Resort Technique says let her know you can no longer tolerate living like this and think its best to go your separate ways. Then go dark, I mean like midnight black. She seems pretty far gone but that may turn things around.
Sorry, to not show much hope but it seems like the door on the M has been closed already by her. The D is just paperwork at this point. But trust me man, after a dark period you will come out of this better.. You gave it more than any sane person could ask. Just my opinion but you really do need to leave this situation because it won't be healthy for you or your kids.
H 30 (me) W 28 Married 9 yrs 2 children EA found out on 7/5/07 ILYBNILWY 8/25/07 The unexamined life is not worth living -Socrates
Great to hear from you. Yeah, more than 3 years of this...
So do you think I should file for D before our talk? In Sweden it is enough for just one person to sign and start the D process rolling. I have all the papers prepared.
How do you go dark when you live together though? We see each other every day (both work at home). She suggested getting season tickets to the opera even - not exactly a D in the making -
Thanks -
Luke
M58, xW54 S22, D18 M 1984, D 2016 Living a new life.
The preparations by the way include redirecting my paycheck to a different account that she cannot access, so I will then control the cash flow.
It seems crass to move a marriage to this material level, and I hope it doesn't turn ugly as a result. We have at least 6 months more together after all -
Luke
M58, xW54 S22, D18 M 1984, D 2016 Living a new life.
It's already ugly, man. It can really only get better. Over time as the termoil settles down you'll see this. If she's shocked and comes back fine. Don't count on it. After all, you're not doing this for her (to get her back) or even for just yourself, you're doing it for you and the kids (family). They need a loving environment. Stability is a good goal, but love is more important.
Luke, we remain the same boat! I gave my W notice and was stupid enough to allow time for the "process" and her response is to book our next summer vacation! Your W is living in her own little world right now (opera tickets together!!!!), just as mine is, and it is up to us to move things forward, hopefully for the better. Both our S's have been eating cake for far too long. Sadly, cleaning up the crumbs and the dishes from their cake eating is left to us too! But you gotta do what you gotta do. You've done more than any man can be expected to do here (I know, I have too!). It's time to pull the plug.
