Plank removed from eye, too late for WAW 3

[Gone Dancin']

Heim,

I'm not OT, but I'll give you my two cents anyway, brotha, because I care a lot about you and your well being. Remind yourself of that as you read.

After reading this last post, I felt that you did some pursuing and even exercised some control (and maybe even acted out of selfishness) which I don't believe was necessary or in your best interest. However, I could be completely wrong.

You brought up the the idea of W NOT introducing the kids to OM anytime soon and not before Xmas, and that he might break W's heart, right? First of all, you did this on your terms, and under the guise of "friendship" and genuine concern for her, which I honestly don't buy whole-heartedly. IMO, you are attempting to control your W's choices because you don't want her to make those specific choices that will hurt you and your chances at reconciliation. Also, you didn't ask W how she feels about any of this. This was all about you, and if I could see that then I'm sure W could too. I could actually see your W going along with things simply to avoid a disagreement, argument, etc. I'm not saying this was her M.O., but I could see the possibility given the circumstances.

Now, what I thought was more pursuing and controlling than anything was that you brought this stuff up on two separate occasions (pre and post Mediation appt). Do you think that W didn't hear you or process your concerns the first time? You also mentioned that you don't really want her to date, and also asked her to not have sex with OM or anyone until after Xmas and see how things are between you two. I can see some good in this, but also see it as pursuing and controlling. Can you? Put yourself in W's shoes and I'll bet you would hear, "Please don't do this, or that, or this, or that," etc. You are attempting to put her in a box with what she can and can't do (or should and shouldn't do).

Now, while you've asked her not to do X, Y, or Z, you asked her if she would be hurt if YOU dated someone. I think that if you expect her to follow through with the things you've asked her to follow through with, it would be somewhat hypocritical for you to begin dating someone. As I mentioned before, you had just told her that you really didn't want her dating. Do you see the problem/hypocrisy with all of this? You also talked about getting a full bed for your apt, and how you could still "nail someone" in a full bed just as well as you could in a queen, plus you "like snuggling anyway."

When put together, what does all of this stuff tell your W? How much respect has she been shown?

Like I said before Heim, I care a lot about you, and this is why I'm giving you my honest two cents here. I feel like you're grasping for what you can because you feel like the rug is getting pulled out from underneath you. I think that maybe less talk (especially regarding your R) is the best thing to do right now. Again, I might be wrong on all of this and I would love to hear from some vets and wise DBers, but I wouldn't be a good DB friend if I sugarcoated my thoughts and/or gave you a pat on the back for doing something that I didn't feel was right in my heart.

If I have hurt you, please exercise the 48 hr rule before responding to me .

GD

[Heimlich]

GD,

If I have hurt you, please exercise the 48 hr rule before responding to me

Never a concern. Help keep me honest. You've got some valid points here. Let me see if I can sort through my feelings.

The OM stuff.
I feel like I'm in a catch-22 here. Would I be hurt were she to end up with OM. Yes. Do I honestly believe that she's exposing herself to a lot of pain? Yes. Plus, I don't want our kids introduced to him, or anyone really, before she would be sure he'd be around for a while. I was also concerned that she would invite him to Christmas at her parents this year (she has them this first year) and that would confuse them. This probably could have waited until I got into my own apartment. I thought the timing would be OK because we just got out of mediating the severing of a R that she wants and that I agreed to without any major disagreements. Plus, yes, I'm trying to plant some seeds of doubt. I have no idea if they will grow and I don't have any way to control her choices. I told her that I don't have a problem with her seeing him (I do, but I don't, if that makes any sense.) So, I was selfish and concerned at the same time.

Oh, yeah, I can see my W going along with this to avoid disagreement. And if she is, that's fine. But, maybe she isn't. I knew she didn't want to get into a conversation about him with me, and I really just wanted to make the point to her that I really, really think he's going to hurt her, sooner or later, but he will. From a DBing standpoint, if she launches into a full-blown R with him, at this time, I don't envision being able to work things out with her. I know I may feel differently in the future. Maybe I'm reading too much into my W's behavior, but we are communicating better than we have in years and I think she's really seeing me being different. I know I can't control her and don't want to. It just seems that there exists a window of reconciliation here and if the OM is always in it, it might slam shut in my mind. Did that make ANY sense?

Now, what I thought was more pursuing and controlling than anything was that you brought this stuff up on two separate occasions (pre and post Mediation appt).

I don't know. In some senses, it felt like the continuation of the same conversation. Wouldn't do this over if I had to live the moment again, but my W was open to what I was saying (turned toward me, arms uncrossed, really looking at me -- those things have been different in previous conversations).

I'm going to have to read up on control issues because I'm not a controlling person. I thought this would be a good time to bring it up (not necessarily the duel conversation, but the OM thing) because we were physically at the place where we were severing our legal R. Also, I've been thinking of telling her how I felt about the OM even before I found the photos, because I know/knew that she would at least go out with him a few times after we separated. The photos put an additional element of might want to plant those seeds sooner rather than later. I don't know if anyone else is telling her this. I'd like to think I'd tell any friend, man or woman, considering pursing this type of R that I felt it was doomed.

She may have felt it as pursuing, but I don't know about controlling. I'm just not. Later on in our separation I may ask her if she felt I was ever controlling, but don't want to do that now. It's not anything she's ever mentioned in any R conversation we've ever had.

Now, while you've asked her not to do X, Y, or Z, you asked her if she would be hurt if YOU dated someone.

She had made some statements the day before about me dating, which floored me -- get a queen sized bed for practical reasons because you might not be sleeping alone, you need to get out, and one or two things similar. Just an honestly curious question to her about how she would feel about me seeing someone else. As I've written, I'm all over the map on this one. Part of me wants to, part of me doesn't. Maybe a nice cup of coffee or game of bowling with someone would be OK. Man, I just don't know. It came up in the context of what I said about OM, and may or may not have anything to do with her R with him in her mind.

Do you see the problem/hypocrisy with all of this? You also talked about getting a full bed for your apt, and how you could still "nail someone" in a full bed just as well as you could in a queen, plus you "like snuggling anyway."

In some of my posts there are hints of this, but I've got a ribald sense of humor. This was said as a joke and my W took it that way.

I've told her that I have no idea if I want to date or if I will date. Never even really thought about it, not in any serious way, until she brought it up. I also told her that if she dates, that's fine (even OM), if she chooses to do so. Self-interest and genuine concern intersect again.

I feel like you're grasping for what you can because you feel like the rug is getting pulled out from underneath you.

I felt like the rug was pulled out from under me in April. I'm honestly OK with moving out and think it could be good for us. I think it will be good for me.

She's actually said, unsolicited or prompted by me, that "space will be good for us". I know that can be read any number of ways, one of which that the door might be sightly cracked, in her mind, for us to get back together. Maybe reading too much into that, but she's said something like that 3 or 4 times now. And we are going to see each other a lot and have to rely on each other a lot.

One final things, these conversations "feel" different from the spouting off I was doing over the last two weeks. Looking back, those were from fear and desperation. These are comgin from a different place.

Back to your post a few days ago, one of my DBing efforts is going to keep my apt clean and mostly clutter free. Clean isn't a problem, the clutter thing, oofah. I'm telling you, I'm kindof like Pigpen.

Keep cracking the whip on me, GD. Salsa and bacchata tonight for me.

BD

[oldtimer]

W will do exactly what she wants. The question is how far she has to push you away to get the space she wants. Pretty far it seems. She is friendly to you and you are all over her and her sh*t. That will teach her not to be friendly to you very quickly.

Sign the agreement. A few months from now she will be much less generous and you will be kicking yourself.

You absolutely cannot control whether W dates OM, has sex with OM, has OM at Xmas, makes pancakes for breakfast with OM with the kids. Drop it, now. She knows you want none of it, you can't control it.

If you want to do something, do it legally. Get it written into the agreement and make it a business matter. OTHERWISE BACK OFF.

Quit lying to yourself. GD is right. All that stuff is all about you and the "nailing" comment is passive-aggressive as hell. Passive-aggressive is about as unattractive as a person can get without throwing stuff or hitting. Something to try to recognize and work on...

Somewhere there is my water cooler post. Read it. Quit glomming onto W. Give her 100 times more space than you think she wants because right now you are just not getting it.

As for validation -- yes, it does sound like it was coming from a bit of a better place. But you are still keeping W from getting any of the space she wants.

[Heimlich]

You absolutely cannot control whether W dates OM, has sex with OM, has OM at Xmas, makes pancakes for breakfast with OM with the kids. Drop it, now. She knows you want none of it, you can't control it.

I know. But hell, what do you do as a friend? How can you watch someone you honestly love do something you feel will hurt them without saying something? Look, I understand that she'll do whatever she wants and maybe I'm not communicating that clearly here. In the last two days, mentally, I do feel different. I could not have had that conversation with her a week ago (and it was a conversation). It's just I felt worse not saying something than saying something. Seriously, how do you just not say anything as a friend? And I am moving to give her the space. She is actually starting to talk to me more than I'm starting conversations with her. In my head, our M is over and we're both free to do what we want. Right now, all we are is friends. Maybe we'll become more in the future, who knows.

Sign the agreement. A few months from now she will be much less generous and you will be kicking yourself.

I will when it's written. I doubt she'll be less generous. I've been a little paranoid about money the last week as we move closer to separation. I keep going over my budget and know that I'll be OK financially, but there's lingering fear that it won't be enough or that something will happen. This is based on when my mom divorced my first stepdad when I was 12 or so. I remember not having the money to do much of anything and I don't want that kind of childhood for my kids. Anyway, I opened up to her about this fear (a 180 for me) because I don't want her to think that all I care about is the money, but fears of not being able to provide like we have been for the girls. She was very understanding and spun the conversation out to reassure me that we'll be OK and that if I ever need help, she would help me -- not just for the girls, but for me. I doubt these feelings on this will change.

the "nailing" comment is passive-aggressive as hell. Passive-aggressive is about as unattractive as a person can get without throwing stuff or hitting. Something to try to recognize and work on...

Not lying to myself. This was a joke and she took it that way -- her sense of humor is similar to mine. There is nothing else to it.

Give her 100 times more space than you think she wants because right now you are just not getting it.

I'm trying to move out of the house as quickly as I can, because I feel like we're all over each other -- I don't feel at home here anylonger and I'd like to move as well. She told me not to drag my feet, but that she didn't feel like I've been pushing on her and to take an extra week or two to make sure it's a good place and safe for you and the girls.

I hear you, OT. I really do, and I get it, though it doesn't seem like it. But I'm getting a different reaction/feeling here, in my life, than perhaps what I'm conveying in my writing.

[Puddle]

Hey Heimlich,

Just a couple of thoughts here.

But hell, what do you do as a friend? How can you watch someone you honestly love do something you feel will hurt them without saying something?

Being friends is great, but I don't think you can be *that* friend to your W. As you know, she's going to do whatever she wants. All you're doing is going on record, and if OM does end up hurting her, not only will she be hurt, she'll be angry at you. Not rational, of course, but she will be, because you were right. You don't get to warn her and then be there to comfort her when it all falls apart, and you're choosing the warning.

I know you're also thinking about your girls, but it doesn't change anything.

Also, you're right that moving out is going to give her a lot of physical space, but what about emotional space? If I were you, I'd back a lot further off in that department. Obviously I'm focusing on just the last couple of conversations you've described, and you have more interactions with her than that. You say you feel different and she can tell, but FWIW, I'd bite my tongue anytime I felt the urge to say something that started with, "I'm telling you this as a friend." You can't give her space and be that friend, too. Let someone else be that friend---you be the friend that helps her when she asks for it.

Take good care of yourself, and have fun dancing.

[dlt1]

Hi Heim,
I hope you don't think we're all beating up on you today!
Take to heart that you can not be *that* friend to your W right now. I have assured my W at least twice that she can talk to me if she just needs someone to listen. I also said to her that I understand I'm probably not the person she is looking to turn to right now.
You are trying to control her. I know it's not obvious, and you are not doing it in a 'bad' way, but you are doing it. part of detaching is not trying to stop someone from making a decision that could be bad. Detaching is letting them fall, trusting they will get back up, and simply being there IF they want you to be.
You have to protect your kids, that is much different than your W. Unfortunatley, it sounds like your only recourse if you feel kids ire in danger is through the courts. Don;ty appeal to your W's logic regarding OM. You've said your piece. Harping on it, even as a friend, will not help her see the light.
I know this must be terribly hard. I am wishing you the best in all of this!

[Kelley]

Heim,
I have to agree with everyone else here. You cannot tell her that the OM will end up hurting her at sometime. One - she isn't going to listen to you and just think that you are saying it out of jealousy or "hoping" and two- if he hurts her then she needs to go thru that.

I am hoping that my H's OW is going to leave him or get bored with him. Her kids are all grown and she sounds like she is ready to just party. My H needs to start taking visitation fromt the kids now that he is moving back into our house. I hope she finds somebody else while he is unavailable on these weekends.

I did tell him tho this past Friday when we talked about CS and visitation that these weekends are for him to spend the time with his kids and that he should't be bringing her around them as it would be too devastating for them right now because they still really don't understand what is happening.

[Heimlich]

Kelly, GD, OT, DL, Puddle,

Thanks. I never thought about that being "that" friend is a bad thing. To me, and I think to my W, a friend is a friend who's going to tell you the truth as they see it. I guess it's also that she doens'nt have a lot of friends and I do want to remain friends with her and that I've told her once or twice in the last weeks that if she ever just wants to talk about whatever -- career, just blow off steam, whatever -- that she's welcome to talk to me. I don't know that anyone else has/would tell her what I did. Maybe that does make it impossible for her to come back to me. I hope not. I guess the point I beat around the bush with her was that I know she still has feelings for him, but to take some time to make sure that's real before introducing him to the girls. I hinted at that, but didn't say it outright.

It's kind of weird, but after finding the OM photos on Sunday and then the mediation on Tuesday, I feel like a flip has switched inside of me. My M is over. We are legally married, but that's it. I guess I've known that for a long time, but it hadn't really sunk in. It finally has. That said, I continue to be willing to reenter a new R with my W at some point in the future, but I can't say how long that feeling will last. I think this is detachment. If she does begin/continue a R with OM and he does end up hurting her, I'd like to be there for her. However, at that point, I'd be done DBing, I believe.

There has been a discussion of boundaries in other threads. I guess what I've been trying to get at is that a physical R with OM (beyond dating) is my boundary. When does attempting to set a boundary cross over into trying to control another's actions? As I typed that I realized, pursuant to the point about us not really being married any longer, is that we've lost the right to set boundaries around each other regarding other people. That said, again, her reactions to me feel different this time. in the past when I brought up our R, I knew I should shut up and was driving her away. I could see it and read it in her body language. These last few conversations haven't seemed that way and it has been like two friends talking. And I keep going back to the 'separation being good for us' statements she's made. It's almost like a crack in her feelings toward me. That's how I feel when optimistic. When pessimistic, I take that as her feeling smothered by me and the time apart will let both of us get our heads on straight. Maybe it's both of those things.

All that self-justification aside, I've said my piece. My primary goal is to protect our girls. Secondary, her. Hopefully she'll keep a R with him from them until she's sure of its sincerity. And, since my stomache isn't turning flip-flops as I write that sentence, I think I really mean it.

I could have written this into the mediation (kids can't be intro'd to the OM) and it would have been binding (man, you can agree to anything -- I will only pick up my girls in a purple tutu with matching tiara every other Wed at 5:41. Once that document is signed, it becomes legally binding.) I didn't want to do so because I wanted to show her that I trust her to do the right thing regarding the girls. To me, to say you can't date or have another man overnight in our house or whatever is too controlling and just childish. Plus, if she wants to date, I can't stop her.

We've had a bunch of smaller conversations regarding the separation, but they've all been practical in nature.

I looked back over my thread and it seems like all of this stuff since the first mediation happened over a month, but it's only been a week.

And, in some senses, it is kind of a relief to know she was talking to OM and for her to know that I know. I think she's been a little surprised at how calm and friendly toward her I've been in the last few days. And, when I did launch into the OM piece, I didn't accuse her, but just calmly stated my concerns. I wasn't a raving nutjob or angry. Plus, her feelings toward me ARE tainted by her continued conversations with him. So it is hard for her to see me in a different light because of that.

Still, I keep getting these positive signs from her. Like last night, weighed myself (195! woo hoo, 25 down, 25 to go) last night and was about to put a shirt back on. Was standing between our bed and dresser about to get a tshirt out. She came in and we talked for a few minutes. Then she went to teh bathroom and instead of doing the pause/squeeze by me thing so as to minimize any touch, she patted me on my ever-shrinking buddha belly as she walked by me. It's those types of interactions that she had totally stopped for 4 months, and are steadily increasing, that keep me thinking that she's more open to me.

Does any of this make sense? I'm obviously confused and conflicted. I know not to have a R talk or to talk about OM. Beyond that, I'm rereading DR over the next few days again and trying to sort out WTH to do next.

And, please, folks. Don't give up on me. I probably go with my gut more than I should, but I think a little of what has happened over the past week has been more positive than negative. If not, I'll let everyone know that too.

BD

[Puddle]

And, please, folks. Don't give up on me.

Never.

Maybe you've just moved to the point where honesty is more important than DBing, and that's fine. You'll do what you need to do for you, and only you can judge what you need and want. I'll support you whatever that is.

[dlt1]

There will be no giving up on you I know the best posts on my thread have also been the wake up ones. I have to hear things 3-4-5 times before I take a moment to consider an alternate action.
You are going through a definitie change in how you will approach your W and M. May be another day or two until you really have a grip on that. My biggest advice right know would be to let things go for the rest of the week. Maybe just wait and watch. See what she does. Don't go for any big talks, unless W bring them up. Then go with your gut, it seems to be right more than wrong lately. And enjoy all those little positives!!
She seems to be enjoying the picnic so to speak.