My wife and I have been separated for nearly 3 months. I have been out of the house for that time. We have had a few phone conversations, some of which have focused on the changes I'm trying to make. She has long thought that though our marriage had many good things, I needed to make some changes through intense self-examination. I was a zero on the romance/passion front for a lot of reasons I don't have space to go into here. I have started seeing a therapist and doing a lot of deep soul searching. I see now that she has some issues to work on too, but I don't have the feeling that she is yet willing to confront that. Last week she told me on the phone that she thought the task was for me to figure out who I am and for her to figure out why she put up with my crap. Well, I feel that she has a lot more self-reflection to do than that, but that's for another post. I have been able to communicate only a bit of what I have been working on this summer,however, as my spouse has asked for space. I have resisted the mistakes that people often make in these situations--no begging, pleading, or manipulation. No pressure. I have told her I respect her need for space. I think my efforts have surprised her--even though she knows only the tip of the iceberg because she doesn't really want to talk about deep issues yet. Earlier this summer she told me she expected me to just walk away when she asked for the separation. I'm not doing that at all, and I feel good about the changes I've made in myself and the insights I've gained. They will help me no matter where my wife and I end up. I'm reading things, going to therapy, and going to a relationship "seminar" on my own in September. She knows this. She also knows I'm engaging in several new activities to renew my life--new hobbies, a new church, etc. I am not sitting around helpless.
Now, my main question. In the last three weeks she has initiated several phone calls to me, always about relatively "small" matters. For most of the summer she has preferred to communicate via email, and then usually about arrangements about who would care for our dogs on what days. Nothing about our relationship aside from about four phone calls earlier this summer. In the last three weeks she has initiated the calls about relatively small things, such as whether I had used the dryer when I was home to pay some bills. I told her in an email briefly one day that I had been troubled by some issues I was working on in therapy. She emailed offering to let me call her if I wanted. Well, that offer has been infrequent, so I took her up on it! She listened for a while, then abruptly accused me of being self-absorbed by always wanting to talk about the issues I was working on. I replied that I was happy to hear about what she was working on if she wanted to share, but she didn't. Then, this last Sunday when I was dropping off the dogs at the house (she always is sure to be gone when I've done that all summer), she came in! She immediately yelled "Why are you here? You're being selfish!" I was 15 minutes later than when I said I would drop off the dogs!!! Hardly an offense in my book. (She did apologize for the accusation of selfishness). The real issue is how should I interpret these calls and her coming into the house????? She knew I was there--my car was there for her to see. Seems to me that if she didn't want to see me she could have driven right off when she saw I was there.
What might be going on here? She's so tight with any mention of emotion or what she wants for us. I'm trying to look at her actions, not her words (which have been few ). I don't want to over-analyze, however, and I don't want to move too far in a negative or positive direction if evidence doesn't warrant. I've been guilty of being too negative in what I tell myself for most of the summer (my own issues going back to childhood).
Thanks for reading such a long post and offering insights. It's maddening trying to get a read on situation where there is little to go on, but I don't want to lose hope if hope is warranted. Nor do I want to be too optimistic. I'm looking for a sane, reasonable way to make sense of what is going on. Maybe she doesn't know what she wants???
Me-43 H-46 M 12 yrs 7/09 T 15 2 grown kids bomb 7/05/07 H moved out 8/04/07 11/22/09 told him I quit;let's get ball rolling Mid Dec- he isn't sure he wants D End 2/2010-Starting to consider piecing
Divorce Busting The Divorce Remedy John Gottman, The Seven Principles of Making Marriage Work John Gottman, Why Marriages Succeed or Fail Gay Hendricks, Conscious Loving Harville Hendrix, Getting the Love You Want Harville Hendrix, Keeping the Love yo Find Joel Block, Broken Promises, Mended Hearts Phil McGraw, Relationship Rescue
So far, these have helped me more than my relationship as the wife is so tight-lipped about her feelings and intentions, but they and others have been of great value in a trying time. I've learned so much, that even if my marriage fails I feel I'm a better person for having invested the time in these and other works. I feel I'm better prepared for the next relationship, should it come to that. Still, I'm not giving up hope on the current one! It's tough some days. Good luck to you.
wow! You sure have been reading a lot. Okay- so you already know to believe none of what they say and half of what they do.
How long have you been married? Kids?
I actually think it's good that she is telling you her objections. (Keep in mind, I'm no expert.) I do sell real estate, though. When people ask "what if ____ happens in the future" that means they are thinking about the future with that house and are open to be influenced by my answers.
Now, I always answer honestly and see if I can ferret out more about their objection to see if I can get to the heart of the matter. If it turns out that the house doesn't make sense once I get deeper, then we move on. If it does make sense, then we start to talk about the positives.
She has been more talkative. She seems to have a short fuse....kinda reminds me of a scared animal. She peeks out a little bit to see if it's safe; and then if she gets spooked she's off again...but then she comes back. She's curious to see if the changes are real. She challenging you to see what you'll do.
Let her set the pace. Be steady. That's my 2 cents. FWIW.
Me-43 H-46 M 12 yrs 7/09 T 15 2 grown kids bomb 7/05/07 H moved out 8/04/07 11/22/09 told him I quit;let's get ball rolling Mid Dec- he isn't sure he wants D End 2/2010-Starting to consider piecing
*sigh* The John Gottman book may actually have did me in with my M. The W asked me to go see a couples therapist. I refused cuz after reading the Gottman book it says that most therapist are whack and 70% fail. I really should've went and show her that I am listening to what she wants. Now she refuses to go to one even though I want to give it a try.... Of course she refuses to work through the Gottman book with me as well.
M: 31 W: 31 M: 7 T: 8 S:4 D:2 Bomb dropped: too many to count or remember, 12/17/07 last one S on 9/2/07 W sent off D papers 12/31/07. Me trying to live life and hope she returns one day.
Thanks for your help. We've been married 11 years, no kids. Been together for 17. I'm 40, she's 39.
Your point about not being sure about whether I've changed strikes me as important. I've signaled a "new" more romantic side in some gifts I've given her for her birthday and our anniversary (both in July). For the birthday I took a bunch of old photos and put them in a book with a statement of "I love your ..." and filled in the rest to tie in with the photo. I made it about her, not us. She seemed to like it--sent an email saying she could tell I had put a lot of love in it and would treasure it. Most emotionally expressive thing I've gotten from her all summer. I should have been making books years ago! But I can't change the past; can only work on myself now and try to show her some things. I see now the book went against DB advice, but it seemed to work.
For the anniversary I found 11 items I thought she would like--simple things like two pieces of dark chocolate, a CD by one of her favorite artists, two books I thought she would like, and put each of the 11 gifts with a poem (nothing too sappy or overly romantic, though a couple dealt with love). She seemed to like that too. (Note: I hadn't read DB or DR at that point). I have not done any grand gestures since these two occasions,and I won't--no pressure or signs of desperation. I'm not desperate, and have managed to avoid many of the behaviors that the experts seem to agree only make things worse. I wanted to show her a different side of me, having never done anything like these things before. Frankly, it felt good to do for myself too. Even if we don't make it, these two activities signaled to myself the type of person I want to be going forward. In the end, only she can decide whether she wants to give the marriage another shot. I can't control her. I can only work on myself--be the person I really want to be; act "as if."
Dave: Sorry to hear about your situation; I feel for you and wish you well.
I would love to go with my wife to couples therapy. We're each seeing individual therapists, and despite what Gottman says I think it's worth a shot if we carefully chose someone. I'd love to do the Gottman book with her, or have her read DR or DB or something together and work together. I've not asked for this, however. We're three months into the separation and she's not opening up to me at all. Do you (or anyone else reading this) think it's ok for me to ask gently if she can ever imagine us going to couples therapy or some other form of joint work on the marriage? Not when, not who, just if she can ever see this happening? Or does that strike you as putting too much pressure on her, given that she seems to be operating from the belief that the problems were my fault? I think it's too soon, that suggesting couples therapy or some other joint activity would make her feel that I was running away from the changes I need to make. I do need to make, and have been making, changes. But several friends say I should put this out there, that she "owes" me at least some signal by now. When does patience, which I agree is needed, become foolishness????? Thanks.
I don't know Bruce. You are a bit further out than me. I'm still two weeks away until I have to move out and give her the space she needs. My W says she needs 30 days to think. I'm really having this fear that in 30 days she will make the end of things because she hasn't given herself enough time.... Right now from what I've learned so far, bringing up anything that may make her think you are pushing her will be a really bad thing. Of course maybe after 3 months it may be a possibility....
M: 31 W: 31 M: 7 T: 8 S:4 D:2 Bomb dropped: too many to count or remember, 12/17/07 last one S on 9/2/07 W sent off D papers 12/31/07. Me trying to live life and hope she returns one day.
Bruce1, actually, you may not have done anything wrong with the romantic gestures-especially when considering DB/DR. You are supposed to do 180s- and those were them. It's unfortunate that it also could come off like 'pressuring' but I think you did good with those things.
Does she ever go to where you live? Is there anything romantic or sentimental there? Would that be a 180 from the 'old' you?
(I'm not positive that *should* be your tact- I am just wondering.)
Me-43 H-46 M 12 yrs 7/09 T 15 2 grown kids bomb 7/05/07 H moved out 8/04/07 11/22/09 told him I quit;let's get ball rolling Mid Dec- he isn't sure he wants D End 2/2010-Starting to consider piecing
I have felt that fear; still do at times. When we first separated, I was convinced that divorce papers were going to arrive any day. I dreaded checking phone messages, going to the mail, even going home. I expected to find a note,message, or divorce papers. Well, that hasn't happened yet. I don't know your wife, obviously, but I would guess that if she says she wants some time to think, take some solace in that, hard as it is. It's agony to live thinking that "well, she didn't ask for a divorce today" but as long as she is saying she wants time to think, I would trust her until you have evidence to the contrary. I know I tended to assume the worst about every little word I got, or from things I see around the house. It's incredibly painful at first, and the hurt is still strong. Still, I've managed to be more "comfortable" if I dare say that, with the uncertainty. It's agony, but it seems to be where we are. The advice about getting on with new hobbies is really true. Don't sit around! Get out and do something, anything, when you move out. Some things will fail, but the key is to keep trying. Meet new people, reconnect with old friends you haven't seen or talked to in a while. I've come to believe that the universe has a way of holding us up when we need it, but we have to be willing to see the signs. Keep your eyes open. People are out there for you.
