I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said. I agree with what Schnarch, Dieda and others say. The theory is not what I have a problem with. What I am debating is whether it is possible to ever achieve that theoretical level, and if it isn’t what is another way? As I’ve stated before, I have never met anyone who I would consider fully differentiated. Some people are more differentiated and others are less. But because we are human and imperfect, we will ALWAYS have a need, even a craving for validation. Because that is a part of what makes us human, cutting off that need for validation is an act of denial of who we are.
Now that does not mean maintaining a wall will bring two people closer together. I agree that it won’t. But I don’t think it is possible for anyone to not have a wall, especially for those on this board. I must say that you, Fearless, Corri and Mojo all have a different tone to your posts. You all do sound more differentiated, more balanced, more in touch with yourself. But I would wage that is because you are all single. Put yourself back into a committed relationship and some of the old enmeshment will start to come back (hopefully much less than before.) Is that because you all did not learn your lessons, or forgot them? I think you are all too smart for that. But because you are human you WILL feel a connection to your future partner, your WILL become vulnerable and you WILL get hurt. Then you WILL put up defenses. What level of differentiation will you settle on then?
That's a consistent impression I get from your posts, Cobra. You want to hold out for the possibility of having some type of leverage with which to influence the other person to want to connect with you. You seem very resistant to the idea of simply being and letting the other person come to entirely their own decision on whether they connect with you or not.
Maybe. I tend to think that is because I have a lot at stake and am not particularly fond of my options, like many of us. I can see the possibility for a whole new outlook on life should I decide to just step out of this mess. That would likely shift my tone and my whole being to a whole lot more idealistic position. But as long as I am in my marriage, as good or bad as it may be, I MUST maintain a certain degree of control over my family and over my wife (to the extent that I can). Were I to simply let my wife come to her own decision on whether to connect with me or not, I believe we would be complete strangers. Look back to your marriage see how that would have worked.
I also think the idea of taking in positive validation while rejecting negative validation is just as much a "detachment wall" as self-validation.
I agree, for healthy relationships, or new relationships where you can start from scratch. But for struggling marriages, that may be the best we can hope for.
I don't think she's doubting; I think she's possessing herself. If she depends on his positive feedback then she's susceptible to his negative feedback (or even a mere lack of positive feedback) and eventually, she's going to get some of that, directly or indirectly. We'd have to ask her but I suspect the more differentiated she becomes, the more she's able to enjoy her activities with NG for what they *are* and not for what they might *mean*. Again, that allows for deeper levels of connection.
You may be right. Mojo does have her own style. Then again, it could be that she can only tolerate a certain level of differentiation and may not want to go farther. She may have some minimum level of validation that she decides she wants. For her, that night be the “sweet spot” where she feels the greatest connection.
Because you want to see that dependence as a form of caring and connection. That's understandable but I don't believe that's what it is. I really don't think there's such a thing as "a healthy need for validation," unless you're talking about self-validation.
Maybe in theory. If that were true in practice, you would never see women testing their man, or any display of jealousy. I believe a healthy level of jealousy can be a very powerful bonding mechanism. It goes to the inner animal nature in all of us.
You seem to view differentiation as "uncaring" or "unfeeling". I see it as completely the opposite.
Yes, to an extent I do see it as uncaring or unfeeling. By definition it HAS to be lass caring or feeling than enmeshment. Detachment is the blocking of too much emotional attachment, especially the destructive kind. I am not arguing that these negative emotions should be limited because they can make a person feel even less cared for, but my original premise was that enmeshment per se is not bad.
All the reading and learning I've done has led me to the conclusion that we can never truly *know* another person, nor can we truly be known by another person. Attempting the feat is a path to frustration and resentment. The notion of "two become one" is unhealthy and impossible.
If we are talking theory, then I don’t buy this, because theoretically it should be possible to completely know a person. All you need to do is ask, and all the other needs to do is answer. I see no reason why it should theoretically be unhealthy. As a practical matter, well, that’s another thing.
