Sex and Validation

[Burgbud]

(tripod) You love dancing....but you can never do so with a partner that really wants to dance with you ever again.

In the discussion with Cemar, the issue isn't that he loves dancing, it's that he loves the feeling that someone *wants* to dance with him. Why is that? Because he needs the validation.

Being needy for validation is an impediment both to Cemar's trying to get his wife to desire him and me trying to get my partner to want to dance with me. I've never said that the situation Cemar and many others around these parts find themselves in doesn't suck because it certainly does.

The answer, though, is to self-validate and move ahead into a life of purpose. We can find things other than dancing and sex that will make us happy. If we do that maybe our contractual partners will come around. Maybe they won't. Either way, we're better off with our new life. Right?

I mean, if you can find a way to bribe, whine, cajole, threaten, barter or use any other external means to make your partner desire you...you've got a best selling book on your hands.

[fearless]

Then why do the ladies that seem distant to you bother you?

I didn't get the impression that it bothers him at all. The fact is he has no idea why these ladies may not enjoy dancing with him. It could be that they like him so much they are nervous and embarrassed around him or maybe he reminds them of someone they don't like or maybe there is no connection there... Whatever the reason, Burg seems to be able to just be aware of this and not let it be any reflection negatively on himself.

For me I used to work with a couple of engineers that I didn't think "liked" me. Now most people I worked with liked me and I say this because there was a joke about how the guys would line up outside of my cubicle to talk. These two guys were NOT among them. Anyway, while I noticed I didn't really worry about it because not everyone has to like me:) So we could work together and I was not at all clingy or bothersome to them. Flash forward a few years and those two guys ended up being fairly good friends. Maybe initially there was something they assumed about me that wasn't true, maybe they just take time to warm up to people, who knows. All I know is that if it had bothered me, I would guess that my worried behavior would probably have prevented us from becoming the friends that we became.

[cemar2]

Burgbud:

The answer, though, is to self-validate and move ahead into a life of purpose. We can find things other than dancing and sex that will make us happy. There are lots of things that can make a person happy. THe problem is that NONE of them can REPLACE what is missing. And the worst part is that you are constantly reminded of this fact.

[Burgbud]

(cobra, quoting me) I've clearly taken it upon myself to discern which of the things they say will have meaning for me and which won't. I've essentially taken them out of the loop and am making all the decisions myself.

In the original post, I said this is what *you're* doing when you only take the positives that people tell you and not the negatives. You're saying, "I'm not going to listen to the negative you tell me, only the good." So how would you answer the questions you asked? Does this mean that you maintain a certain wall, certain level of detachment. Are you allowing others to have an emotional connection to you if you only allow in their positive input? How close do you think they want to get to you?

Then why do the ladies that seem distant to you bother you?

Why do you think it bothers me?

[Burgbud]

The fact is he has no idea why these ladies may not enjoy dancing with him.

Very true. At the same time, I haven't been doing this long and what I lack in skill I try to make up for in enthusiasm. I suspect that's not a selling point with some of the more sophisticated dancers I encounter.

The real point, though, is even if I never ever become good enough for those ladies to enjoy dancing with me, I'll still enjoy it and consider myself "good" (whatever that means to whomever) and I'll do it as much or as little as I want.

[Burgbud]

(cemar) There are lots of things that can make a person happy. THe problem is that NONE of them can REPLACE what is missing.

Not long ago I would have agreed with you completely. Now...I don't know. The thing I was most into in my marriage was the sex. That's where I most invested time, emotions and even money on my stbx. Sex was very VERY important to me. More than once I told her I'd leave if the sex stopped and I meant it (at least I did at the time) and she believed me.

But now I'm de facto single, I'm not currently involved with anybody and it's been months since I've had sex. For a while I was very concerned about where my next fix was going to come from but now, particularly since reading NMMNG, it's not such an overriding concern. Sex seems more like icing in my life and less like cake. So I'm thinking that other things CAN replace what's missing. I sure would like to have sex again some day but as I said in an earlier post, I wouldn't trade all the other things that make me happy for daily hot sex.

And the worst part is that you are constantly reminded of this fact.

Agreed. If you find other interesting stuff to make your life out of, though, you'll be reminded less often than "constantly."

[Cobra]

Burgbud,

In the original post, I said this is what *you're* doing when you only take the positives that people tell you and not the negatives. You're saying, "I'm not going to listen to the negative you tell me, only the good." So how would you answer the questions you asked? Does this mean that you maintain a certain wall, certain level of detachment.

Maybe I’m starting to confused myself! What I am trying to propose is to not have a detachment wall in place that could limit connection with others (though it may be limiting for some people). This detachment wall can limit not only the negative but also the positive connections. I don’t mean to pick on Mojo, but I see her doubting a lot of the positives she is now getting from her NG as a way to protect herself in case he also throws out some negative feedback. So in a way is she creating a wall in anticipation of a negative that could never come?

Are you allowing others to have an emotional connection to you if you only allow in their positive input?

Of course! Everyone wants connection. Trying to deny this can both hurt and help us. It helps by avoiding the negative. It hurts by limiting the positives, positives which we all need because we are imperfect. Denying a healthy need for validation can take a lot of the spark out of a relationship I think.

How close do you think they want to get to you?

No clue. It might be possible those women who are distant to you are doing so to pre-empt you because maybe they feel you are being distant to them. So their distancing is just a self protection tactic. If this were the case, then each side trying to outdistance the other sounds like a shame, doesn’t it? Or maybe they just don’t like your dancing style.

Why do you think it bothers me?

I don’t think it bothers you in the same way it would if you were trying to date one of those ladies, but like any person, you can’t help but wonder why someone seems to avoid you. It is natural to wonder this. We are human. We all want some level of validation. Nothing wrong with that, until it is taken to extremes.

[Burgbud]

What I am trying to propose is to not have a detachment wall in place that could limit connection with others (though it may be limiting for some people).

I think Fearless has said previously, and I quite agree, that detachment via differentiation *enhances* one's ability to connect with others. It does not impose a limit. As long as I'm looking to you for any sort of validation, I'm going to show you the parts of me I believe will lead toward getting that validation. If I possess myself (my favored term for "differentiated") then I can show you exactly who I am and we can be much more deeply connected. Though, of course, you could always choose not to connect with me. That's a consistent impression I get from your posts, Cobra. You want to hold out for the possibility of having some type of leverage with which to influence the other person to want to connect with you. You seem very resistant to the idea of simply being and letting the other person come to entirely their own decision on whether they connect with you or not.

I also think the idea of taking in positive validation while rejecting negative validation is just as much a "detachment wall" as self-validation.

I don’t mean to pick on Mojo, but I see her doubting a lot of the positives she is now getting from her NG as a way to protect herself in case he also throws out some negative feedback.

I don't think she's doubting; I think she's possessing herself. If she depends on his positive feedback then she's susceptible to his negative feedback (or even a mere lack of positive feedback) and eventually, she's going to get some of that, directly or indirectly. We'd have to ask her but I suspect the more differentiated she becomes, the more she's able to enjoy her activities with NG for what they *are* and not for what they might *mean*. Again, that allows for deeper levels of connection.

Everyone wants connection.

No one's debating that. We're debating the most productive means to that end.

Denying a healthy need for validation can take a lot of the spark out of a relationship I think.

Because you want to see that dependence as a form of caring and connection. That's understandable but I don't believe that's what it is. I really don't think there's such a thing as "a healthy need for validation," unless you're talking about self-validation.

You seem to view differentiation as "uncaring" or "unfeeling". I see it as completely the opposite.

All the reading and learning I've done has led me to the conclusion that we can never truly *know* another person, nor can we truly be known by another person. Attempting the feat is a path to frustration and resentment. The notion of "two become one" is unhealthy and impossible. What is possible is to know ourselves, continue learning about ourselves and share what we know with someone else. We can also share in their knowledge of themself but it always comes back to "hold on loosely," or as Khalil Gibran says:

But let there be spaces in your togetherness,
And let the winds of the heavens dance between you.
Love one another, but make not a bond of love:
Let it rather be a moving sea between the shores of your souls.

I see this theme over and over. When I notice the other theme, "two become one," I see bad consequences. YMMV.

We are human. We all want some level of validation.

To the extent we embrace validation from others, we are who they tell us we are. The more we're able to get that validation from within (or from God, if we're so inclined) the more we're able to possess ourselves, understand our humanity and share it with whomever we choose.

This is the common theme of Schnarch, Deida, Eldredge and Glover. Are they all barking up the wrong tree?

[Corri]

Hm. What of the notion of 'positive feedback?'

I know I respond better to it than I do to 'negative or authoritarian feedback.' If I get no feedback at all, either positive or negative, I'll probably lose interest.

I also think it important to understand the feeling behind the compliment or positive feedback. Some people use it to manipulate; others use it to communicate effectively; still others use it to connect in a meaningful way.

When I go into the hair salon to get my hair done, my hair dresser just gushes over me. I think that is part of his job; I don't necessarily put stock into what he thinks of my looks, my clothes, etc. I do put stock in what he thinks about hair styles that are best for me.

I don't think much of the women complimenting me in the department stores; they want to sell me clothing. I don't even put much stock in what my bf thinks of me in my clothes, because if **I** don't like what I have on, if I don't feel good in it, his compliment is not going to make up for my lack of confidence. I have one outfit I really like that he doesn't. Not his taste. I still like it, I like how I feel in it, and if he doesn't like it, it's not my problem.

If I put something on, I'm feeling great in it, and he compliments me, you betcha, I smile, big. Makes me feel good. I'll own it. But my self-worth isn't shattered if a compliment is NOT forthcoming.

If I am trying on clothes, and I like something, I will ask his opinion, if he's with me. He gives me an honest opinion because he considers such things objectively. I take his feedback under consideration. His compliment may or may not come later...

If I am around negative feedback too much, it is repellent to me, and I just don't want to be around it. Period. I don't know too many people who do.

So to me, differentiation is not being above positive feedback, or even enjoying it... it's the awareness one has of it, and how it affects one's sense of self, how one lets that color future expectations and outcomes, etc.

I hope I am never above getting a compliment, I just hope I never LIVE for them.

Corri

[Cobra]

Burgbud,

I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said. I agree with what Schnarch, Dieda and others say. The theory is not what I have a problem with. What I am debating is whether it is possible to ever achieve that theoretical level, and if it isn’t what is another way? As I’ve stated before, I have never met anyone who I would consider fully differentiated. Some people are more differentiated and others are less. But because we are human and imperfect, we will ALWAYS have a need, even a craving for validation. Because that is a part of what makes us human, cutting off that need for validation is an act of denial of who we are.

Now that does not mean maintaining a wall will bring two people closer together. I agree that it won’t. But I don’t think it is possible for anyone to not have a wall, especially for those on this board. I must say that you, Fearless, Corri and Mojo all have a different tone to your posts. You all do sound more differentiated, more balanced, more in touch with yourself. But I would wage that is because you are all single. Put yourself back into a committed relationship and some of the old enmeshment will start to come back (hopefully much less than before.) Is that because you all did not learn your lessons, or forgot them? I think you are all too smart for that. But because you are human you WILL feel a connection to your future partner, your WILL become vulnerable and you WILL get hurt. Then you WILL put up defenses. What level of differentiation will you settle on then?


That's a consistent impression I get from your posts, Cobra. You want to hold out for the possibility of having some type of leverage with which to influence the other person to want to connect with you. You seem very resistant to the idea of simply being and letting the other person come to entirely their own decision on whether they connect with you or not.

Maybe. I tend to think that is because I have a lot at stake and am not particularly fond of my options, like many of us. I can see the possibility for a whole new outlook on life should I decide to just step out of this mess. That would likely shift my tone and my whole being to a whole lot more idealistic position. But as long as I am in my marriage, as good or bad as it may be, I MUST maintain a certain degree of control over my family and over my wife (to the extent that I can). Were I to simply let my wife come to her own decision on whether to connect with me or not, I believe we would be complete strangers. Look back to your marriage see how that would have worked.

I also think the idea of taking in positive validation while rejecting negative validation is just as much a "detachment wall" as self-validation.

I agree, for healthy relationships, or new relationships where you can start from scratch. But for struggling marriages, that may be the best we can hope for.

I don't think she's doubting; I think she's possessing herself. If she depends on his positive feedback then she's susceptible to his negative feedback (or even a mere lack of positive feedback) and eventually, she's going to get some of that, directly or indirectly. We'd have to ask her but I suspect the more differentiated she becomes, the more she's able to enjoy her activities with NG for what they *are* and not for what they might *mean*. Again, that allows for deeper levels of connection.

You may be right. Mojo does have her own style. Then again, it could be that she can only tolerate a certain level of differentiation and may not want to go farther. She may have some minimum level of validation that she decides she wants. For her, that night be the “sweet spot” where she feels the greatest connection.

Because you want to see that dependence as a form of caring and connection. That's understandable but I don't believe that's what it is. I really don't think there's such a thing as "a healthy need for validation," unless you're talking about self-validation.

Maybe in theory. If that were true in practice, you would never see women testing their man, or any display of jealousy. I believe a healthy level of jealousy can be a very powerful bonding mechanism. It goes to the inner animal nature in all of us.

You seem to view differentiation as "uncaring" or "unfeeling". I see it as completely the opposite.

Yes, to an extent I do see it as uncaring or unfeeling. By definition it HAS to be lass caring or feeling than enmeshment. Detachment is the blocking of too much emotional attachment, especially the destructive kind. I am not arguing that these negative emotions should be limited because they can make a person feel even less cared for, but my original premise was that enmeshment per se is not bad.

All the reading and learning I've done has led me to the conclusion that we can never truly *know* another person, nor can we truly be known by another person. Attempting the feat is a path to frustration and resentment. The notion of "two become one" is unhealthy and impossible.

If we are talking theory, then I don’t buy this, because theoretically it should be possible to completely know a person. All you need to do is ask, and all the other needs to do is answer. I see no reason why it should theoretically be unhealthy. As a practical matter, well, that’s another thing.