Need some help again

[LoginName]

JBF, I have to say I don't understand MLC. I've read a lot on this board about it, and I think it was Smurf who put together a lot of the MLC posts in one place. It sounds too awful to me. I think, given a full blown MLC, I would have to detach almost completely. I don't think I could put up with a lot of things people do put up with. Then again, I never thought I'd be able to deal with what I have had to deal with.

When I got advice from ToughLover, it was always straight forward, blunt, and given in a way that seemed to me that TL had no doubt about what he was saying. I always start with a preamble explaining my limits and lack of understanding. TL's advice would sometimes make me angry, because I would think he wasn't understanding, or that he was right on one level but ignoring others. I just wanted a little understanding sometimes.

Which way is right? I think both are. I think I needed the TL style of advice, but also the more understanding type. In the end, we make up our own minds anyway.

Reading other's sitches, I am sometimes tempted to tell them to get out of the M/R, that it's not worth it. Why do that to yourself? Isn't it unhealthy at some level? Doesn't it just enable the spouse? But that's not my decision. Obviously, I can't know the other person's sitch from just their posts on this board.

Having said that, I feel you are making the right choices for you. I think I would have made many of the same choices.

Lissie's post was very good. It did make me think of something though... Is it helpful, in the long run, to judge the spouse and say they are the crazy one? (They are, but does it help us to think that way?) From my situation, I keep trying, with varying and limited degrees of success, to put myself in my W's shoes. What is she thinking or feeling that could lead to her actions? Sometimes I feel I catch a glimpse of what she may feel. Most of the time I have to admit I don't know and can't know. Most of the time, I try to accept that to her, it make sense. I can't change that, or change her mind.

Sometimes it helps me to blame my W, to assume it's MLC (if my wife is MLC, it seems to be much milder than most, but still - at least MLC is an explanation, and I desperately want to understand what happened). But now, I feel more that it's just something that happened and I may never understand. She did what she did because she felt she had to. It feels mean, petty, and childish, for me to blame it on her and assume she must be totally illogical.

Yes, she left and she left the kids. I'm not excusing her behavior; I'm just trying to let it go.

Does that relate to your sitch in anyway? Your W had an A will living with you. Your W is out partying. Your W seems to be in a stronger MLC than mine. Our sitches are different, but maybe there are still some similarities. I'm sure much of this has not been easy for her. She must have her reasons for her actions, as wrong or illogical as they may seem. My W told me she felt so trapped and depressed that she thought about driving into oncoming traffic. If she felt like that, she had to run. Feelings, I'm learning, trump logic. There doesn't have to be a logical reason for actions, and you can't argue with someone’s feelings. You can't say "no, you don't feel that way, or shouldn't, and here is why". People feel what they feel.

I think we are learning, through this painful process, how to ride our feelings, guide them, and see the deeper meaning in them. Maybe someday our spouses will too.

but I do have zero expectations of our full relationship being restored. I can see us being good friends in the future and whilst part of me does still want the full package

Isn't that an interesting place to be in? Maybe you can have the full package someday. Maybe the full package won't be as you imagine it to be. I think we are both at the stage where we can hope for reconciliation and love, but not be attached to that hope. It's a bitter sweet kind of feeling. It makes me aware of that deep strength that we have now.

I thought it was really interesting how we both dealt with the conflict in what we were saying

This is a good feeling too, isn't it? My W has been baiting me lately. I can hear the anger in her voice at times. She challenges me. In a way, I'm flattered. She must still be attached to me and give a damn if she can be angry. But I don't take the bate. Someday, maybe, she'll have to work through that anger and vent it toward me. Meanwhile, I don't want to play that game. I don't want to get angry in return, or try to be nice to her to make her happy. I choose not to play the game because I've reached a level of detachment.

Which goes back to our problem, JBF, how do we work for reconciliation, when we have detached enough that we don't care overly much if we are reconciled? How do we love them? Why should we love them? What the hell is love anyway?

So we leave the door open, while we go about our own lives. We hope for the full package without depending on that hope. We worry that when and if she wants to have the full package, we might not - or at least not with her.

We still want help and support sometimes, but I don't think we need it. Your post sounds like you are doing well. I love that

was strong enough to acknowledge my faults and didn't need to 'point score' and convince her of anything

and you noticed her reaction to your growth and change. Of course, her reaction is not the goal, but it's interesting all the same. Part of that weird balancing act we have to do of caring and not caring, hoping and not hoping.

If nothing else, by finding that strength to Not have to score points, to admit our own faults, we are better, healthier people. Our lives will be better for it, and our kid's lives too. We will still face heartache in the future, no doubt, but we're stronger than before.

Obviously, I felt talkative. Thanks for letting me ramble.

If you get the time, fill me in on what's going on in your life. New job? Moved? Daughter in school? Read any good books? ( I just read "Blink", about how our subconscious mind makes decisions. Interesting stuff. My W recommended it to me. I thought we'd both read it and discuss it. She started it, and then stopped. I've finished it. Go figure. I'm reading an article about William James and Pragmatism that is really exciting me.)