Plank removed from eye, too late for WAW 3

[Puddle]

Hey Heimlich,

It sounds like you handled the move with grace (minus one blowup---so what?), and I bet you're right about both of you feeling the pressure easing up. Your wife's attitude toward you sounds like it was positive, truly friendly. And that's not a bad place to be.

She told me she wants me to see someone else. Guilt? Sort of a test for me to date so that if our feelings do change we'll both know what we want and will be 'even' in the relationship. "He banged me, but you banged her". I is confused.

Oh, forgot the other alternative. Maybe she just wants me to be happy.

Impossible to know. It is strange to hear, though, isn't it? Right out of bizarro world. At least she waited until you're moving out. In our second R conversation, when he told me that for him it's over and done with, my DH said, "I'll know you're okay when you start dating." WTF? Until a week before that, I'd been a happily married woman in my own mind. Not much thought about dating. But your comment makes me wonder what he meant, too. I assume the first part was the key: "I'll know" (and be relieved). But maybe he just wants me to be happy, too. I guess that's something.

Take care. Enjoy your very own place.

[alk24]

Heimlich-

I can tell you that it probably will not last with the OM. Esp, coming off a divorce..I can say this b/c I'm living proof. I was in the middle of my divorce when I started dating my husband (and he's the reason I'm here so we know the story). Anyway, I don't know what her motive in saying she wants to see you with someone else is..your guess is as good as mine. Also, I totally understand your feelings of dissapointment w/ her choices. I feel the same way today about my 1st husband esp when he does things that hurt my daughters.

I hope you come to a point where you can be friends with her if it doesn't work out b/c it's always best for the kids.

[Disillussioned]

Heim,
It's hard for me to really put my arms around this, but I see my R moving in the same direction as you. I hoping I can turn things around, but I think where you are now is where I'm going to end up in a matter of weeks or months. I know for myself and W, the past month has been a lot of tension. We've been living in the same house and sleeping in the same bed, but there has been little to no connection and really just a lot of tension. I would almost welcome the freedom of living alone at this point. I know in my last post that I would insist that she leave because it was her decision, but I'm not really that convinced. Even now, we're on vacation, but there is just tons of tension. Not to mention I get to see her in little bikinis everday. Killing me.

Anyhow I think the time apart will be therapeutic, and like I keep hearing from others on this board, the OM is a temporary fixture. I will only be a matter of time before he shows his true colors.

[dlt1]

Just like all of this, the time apart is good and bad. For me, I felt liberated a bit. But, the lonely nights when I do not go out really wear on me. As much as I like all of you, when I find myself checking the site every half hour b/c that is all I have to do, well, it doesn't really help get my mind off of my M, W, R etc.
I find myself trying to remeber how much I enjoyed my old place and being single. Not in a dating sense, just in a no real responsibilities sense. Having a hard time reconnecting though. Lots of drinking, partying, bar hopping back then. while I still enjoy some of that, it's a different scene several years the ummmm...wiser? (older). But I am finding new possibilities, so getting there.
Heim, I hope to get to the point with my W where I truly am ambivalent to what happens to us. I am trying, but just can't let go. You have a great opportunity to keep bettering yourself, and your R with D's. As for dating, my suggestion is not to look for it (sounds like you're not), but if the opp aroses, at least explore it.

[Not Much Left]

Gents
I have a few years on ya. Cant imagine living that scene again. I could do it, but suspect it would be as not fulfilling as it was before, thats why I got married!

[waw1978]

Hey H

Sounds like you have a new perspective about all of this. I think it was on CVA's thread that you said "not bad just different" an I think that its great that you are detaching and not letting the W & impending actions sour you. Seems like you have a whole new outlook on things. I think this is a real big step for you and it will be hard for W to miss this new & improved H.

I did find some amusement in the bed convo with your W. I also got a full size bed, not queen for the exact same reasons a) where the hell will all my stuff go and b) I am going to be the only one in it!

And, yes for the record I think your W feels very guilty about the OM and wants you to move on so she can feel less guilty about her actions. Maybe she does want you to be happy as well. But I def think at this point its more about evening the playing field and easing her own mind. ***only think this as one of my cousins had an affair on her H a while back and she kept telling him to go out and have some fun to even the score. was never about him, was all about her and not wanting him to have something to hold over her head.*** I don't know your wife but thats JMHO.

[Steel_Box]

Hey Heimlich-
Sorry to see that you have gotten to this point, but glad to see your attitude is good. For what it is worth I can say that my sitch began to improve once we were in seperate places and not always on top of each other. I would get GAL and work on the PMA. As far as the dating, I agree with dlt1, don't look for it but don't shun it if the opportunity arises.

I don't think this is lovingly detached, but, baby, I'm detached. I think once I'm away from her the feelings will smooth out and I may find a place in my heart for her again. But, to rip off Steel_Box's metaphor, those feelings of love are locked up and buried today.

1. detached is detached lovingly or not. As long as you don't stay angry or bitter then it accomplishes the goal.
2 In my experience (Like I have oh so much) it does smooth out. Also, the relief of the pressure seems to allow some things to smooth out quicker than you think.
3.Leave em locked up and buried. Just don't forget where the key is so you can pull them back out if you need them.

Best of Luck and Stay Strong,
Steel

[PhD_ChrisD]

Heim,

You have been a good friend on this board and I really apprecaite the way you have helped me and supported me. It really broke my heart to read this post.

You are a good man, Heim. Good men are few and far between (and most do not join the Jar-Corps anyway). Remember that you are a good man and hold your head up and chest out even when times are awful.

I am not good at the DB thing, so I am not going to even try to dispense any advice there. I make too many mistakes so it would be like you copying my wrong answers on an exam! But I can tell you something that gets me through the dark times: "this too shall pass." I was taught that in the Army by a tough old Sergeant. When things get hot, just remmber that this too shall pass. It helps to keep me from losing it.

Be well my friend: this too shall pass.

--Chris

[Heimlich]

Thanks to everyone for the kind words of encouragement -- it's great for the PMA! Really, thank you all. I want to go back and read through them again in less of a rush, but want to get this out while it's fresh.

So, since last Thursday (posted on page 5 or so), when I told my W that she was kindof being rude to me and I wasn't angry or anything, but that we could have normal conversations, she's been a lot more chipper and just talking to me -- kind of like we used to.

Didn't talk too much Sunday, given the photos I found of her and OM. Got a little snippy with her yesterday, but apologized soon after. She got talkative again then. Last night, she even asked me how my dance class went when I went in our (her) bedroom to change. Hasn't really expressed an interest about that before other than in a perfunctory way. She even extended the conversation a little as I was about to go back downstairs. Came up again a few minutes later (I'm going to be screwed when I get older, I've got nothing for short term memory now). Talked for a few minutes again. She said something about mediation today, I said that I really believe that the only way we could be together is for me to move out for a while and that the door is still open. She kind of nodded, but not in that 'shut the hell up' way she used to get when something like that would slip out. Asked her for a hug and she gave me a really good one. Used to be I'd get kindof the stiff arms and a 5 or 6 second pullaway. This was for a good 30 seconds, if not longer. Tres nice.

Our final bit of mediation was today at 1. I got there just at 1, but our mediator was delayed in court. Started talking a little about apartments for me. Told her that I still planned on getting a full, so I would have room for everything else, and that I intended to sleep alone. Followed up by saying I could just as well nail someone in a full sized bed as a queen, plus that I like snuggling to sleep, so full was better for that. She just laughed out loud. Then said, that, seriously, while I don't think we can be together now, I've not closed the door on that in the future. A full sized bed would be an easier fit in a guest room than a queen -- and that goes for whether we got back together or I eventually ended up alone with dogs and cats (or happywith someone else). She said that's not bad thinking. I had also asked her last night to help me with figuring out food prices because I haven't really gone grocery shopping in years. (An aside, no, I'm not the steorotypical male. I actually taught her how to shop for bargains and use coupons. I was so proud when she came back from the male 10 years ago, said she had bought a shirt at one store, decided to walk down to another one, found the same shirt cheaper, and returned the first. Eureka, my baby had grown up! Anyway, the point is, I can shop, just have no idea what anything really costs any longer because she always did it -- she likes to get out of the house, I repeatedly volunteered to no avail). So, she brought up that she'll make a list of prices to help me out so that I'm not buying stuff too expensive. Said I'd miss having a freezer to buy meat on sale, she said I could keep it at the house and she could bring it to me since we'll be seeing each other a lot anyway. So things were going well, and I felt it would be ok to bring up something that's bothering me, your guesses are correct.

I kind of reached over and touched her knee and said "Sorry I had my head up my ass for so long and that we're here."

She kind of laughed and nodded.

Me: Can I tell you something as a friend?
W: Sure (looking a little guarded)
Me: I know you're going to see OM. Obviously, I'd prefer not, but that's your choice. However, I am worried about you and the girls. I think he's going to break your heart. This is a man that cheated on his W twice, that you know of, with women who were emotionally vulnerable at the time.
W: It wasn't like that.
Me: Just from my point of view, that's how I see it. You were having trouble with your M (as was her friend, 9 years ago) and he saw the opportunity and pounced. I wish you would turn that keen intelligence of yours to thinking about that before he really hurts you. And please don't introduce the girls to him before Christmas or bring him down with you for Christmas. That would be too much for htem
W: She said she had no intention of doing so.
Me: Just please think about what I said, as a friend. All ego aside, I really do think he's going to hurt you. Plus, take your time with the girls. I don't want them to be confused.
W: OK
Me: Thanks for listening.

I wanted to get this out in a neutral setting, because she carried on with him at our house, so there's some emotion involved when he's mentioned here. Plus, I am really concerned, equally for her and for our girls.

Mediator walked in shortly after. Didn't have a lot to discuss. The only real point of contention was a stained glass lamp that we both really like. I just said that she could have it (though, damn, I really do like that lamp). We agree on everything else. THe brought up our 401K plans. Mine is over double the value of hers and I've offered to split it since we began. She looked uneasy when he brought it up and said "I feel like you're taking a lot of money from you if we split it." I said something like, not really, that money was for us and I saved more in my 401k becuase you were withholding for flex benefits. If you want it, half of it is yours. She said she felt bad about taking it, so I keep it. We were sitting side by side. A couple of times when we were talking, to emphasize her points she would look at me and touch me on the arm or the hand -- like she used to. That was a bit strange, she hasn't done that in a while. Got to the point about how are we going to decide what a 'good school' is (that's our criteria for moving). After some conversation in which I got in a point that I had just gotten to where Candice and I were thinking about moving elsewhere when all of this started back in Oct. I made it a point to say that I was ready to start talking about moving for this reason when she told me about the A and that we haven't talked about it since. She kind of looked at me with a little surprise. Anyway, we agreed that we'll do our best to decide on a school that we both like. If we can't, the mediation agreement says, surprise, we'll resort to mediation to decide. Really, we have no idea where we're looking, so the conversation was premature. He reinforced that given the way that we worked together on this and the obvious fact that we get along, that it probably won't be a problem for us.

Waiting for the elevators, I just looked at her and said "he's probably wondering why the hell they're getting divorced." She just kindof snorted -- half humor/half exasperation. Asked her why she's been so friendly the last few days, said because you asked me and I've been trying. In the lobby, she showed me her nails, which are long (they usually break because she has to wear latex gloves frequently for work -- insert lewd comment of your own here). Haven't joked with her in a while, so I said if you want to give me a belated bday present, we can put those to good use. Got a genuine laugh out of that (if I get a belated bday present . . . oh, my, not that that's likely to happen).

I kind of put my hand on her back for a couple of steps and she even walked a little closer to me on the way back to the cars. Told her thanks for listening to me and that I really do think that being apart is going to be good for us. Said something like I just feel the chance for something really good slipping throuhg our fingers because I was a dumbass and didn't realize a lot of things. Not that you aren't partly responsible (to which she quikcly said yes), but that I really was blaming you all last year and giving you no real hope that we could have ever been good together. She was agreeing.

Said that I was kindof excited about having my own place and that'll it'll be good for me, and possibly us. Said that I might date, but really have no idea. I keep going back and forth in my head on that. I told her that while, of course, i don't want her to date, it wouldn't kill me, but to please think about what I said abou tthe OM. Told her that I'm telling you this as a friend, not as your H (given that we just came out of mediation to end our M, I hope she took that point). That I really do think he'll hurt you and that while part of me wants you to feel that pain, the better part of me doesn't. Asked her to please think about it. Said that I know you'll most likely see him, and that's ok, but asked if she'd be willing not to have sex with OM or anyone until Christmas, just to see about anything between us (this was spurred by something she said last night, in which she said some combo of the words -- me, apartment, separation, and us in a way that sounded like she might be seeing a difference in me). While she probably just said it to save my feelings, she did say yes. I actually kind of believe her. The conversation was very low key at this point. I went too far by saying that the door was still open (that was ok) because it seems like she kind of believes that a little. Went a sentence too long after with a little pushing, but reeled myself in and apologized. [The no sex thing, I think, is key for me. If she does, I don't know if I could work on this. I don't want to find out if I can. Her dating kindof hurts, but doesn't bother me. Maybe because I know she might/is anyway. So, for me, the no sex is my line for DBing, if that makes any sense. Of course, if she had a one-night stand with someone, I don't think that would bother me too much. The OM, oh yeah, that bothers me.]

This actually took longer to type and read than to actually say. OT, is this still pursuing? It didn't feel like it. It felt like it came from a different place, if that makes any sense. Not out of desperation or fear, but out of, I don't know, love and hope for real change.

The whole mediation thing went very well. While we were waiting I asked her if she wanted me to date, because that was a very strange comment from her about the bed yesterday. She said something like I just want you to get out more. I asked her if it would hurt her feelings if I dated someone. At first she shook her head, but then she looked at me and said I don't know how I'd feel.

It seems like the pressure is off with the mediation. It's not signed yet, so it's not enforceable, but I think she was scared that I was going to say this was forced and not voluntary or to sue based on adultery. She never said either thing, but I think she worried about it.

She said toward the end, asked about the timing of when to file and everything -- and immediately reached over, touched me on the arm and said "not that I'm trying to rush anything". Told her that's a good question and I was going to ask it myself, so that's fine. For the interested, once it's signed it's an enforceable document. Then, after I'm out of the house for a year (oh, and no sexual relations) we can file. After that, it's about 2 to 4 weeks to a court date.

Couple of possibilities:
1. She's seeing a bit of the new, calmer me. Dancing, not blowing up when I found the pictures of the OM (OK, not blowing up long term), planning on starting to play rugby, being a little neater, not drinking, continuing the weight loss. Maybe she's starting to believe that I still do really love her and that these changes I'm making are real and not some attempt at manipulation. Especially as I continue acting this way through the mediation. I really think she expected me to blow a gasket and act like a baby.
2. She's just excited about the prospect of me being out of the house with the girls so that she and OM can, well, you know. Hurts still to type that one out.
3. She sees me moving out as a growth opportunity for me. If I keep doing what I'm doing, maybe she'll realize that I wasn't so bad after all. That the separation is necessary for us to ever be us again.
4. She's just being nice.

I can live with all but door number 2 (both because of ego and because I sincerely believe he's going to hurt her eventually or soon, don't know which and that'll hurt my girls).

Oofah, that took awhile to type up. Need to go for a quick run.

Thanks again for the support everyone. I've never had a lot of close friends, and this has been a very humbling and exciting experience for me in realizing that there are a lot of wonderful people in the world and that taking a chance on opening yourself and getting to know someone is an opportunity to be embraced.

It's going to get better,

BD

[Matt-14]

Hey Heimlich,

[quote=Heimlich]She told me she wants me to see someone else. Guilt? Sort of a test for me to date so that if our feelings do change we'll both know what we want and will be 'even' in the relationship. "He banged me, but you banged her". I is confused.

BD,

That is sort of strange. My W said the same thing in the beginning. I think part of it was to see if it would bother her, maybe it would snap her feelings back. The other part is surely guilt. If your doing the same thing, then what she's doing doesn't look so bad!

Stay strong....do things when you feel you are ready!

Even if it is door #2, like someone said...I gaurentee you it will not last! And he will be out of the picture for good.

Sometimes I wonder if it would be worth it to see the WAS get what they want. I know it wouldn't last long but I would definitly know it was over between them. If they didn't have a chance to act out on their feelings I would always be wondering who they are thinking about. I know thats crazy! and its definitly not what I want but it has entered my fu^*ed up mind!

Heim you write pretty well and long. Maybe you want to save these and publish your story sometime.

The Heimlich Files!