Hmmm.... I hear what people are proposing on this thread, that differentiation and self validation are a higher goal than enmeshment and other-validation. Since being desired is a form of other-validation, it is something to be concerned with as it can lead to all the marriage problems everyone is trying to escape. Self validation avoids these relationship problems, but it leaves a bad taste in people’s mouth because the pull of being desired and loved is so great. How can that part of other-validation be so bad?
Well I agree with both views, but that is because I think there is a third approach which gets very little play on this board and is one that I think should be discussed more. Perhaps that is because none of us here have been able to achieve it and that is interdependence. Now I’m the last to be talking about this, but as I understand it, interdependence looks on the surface to be exactly the same as enmeshment. There is the deep involvement with the affairs of one another, the concern over how each other feels, and I suspect there is even the need to be desired and loved.
The difference is when those enmeshing type of things are not met or provided by one partner, the other partner does not fall into enmeshed thinking or reacting. I think the reason this is possible is that the partner A has developed a level of empathy to understand the feelings of rejection of partner B is feeling and moves to validate those feelings as a GIFT and not as a NEED. Partner B accepts this gift at face value without expectation of obligation.
IMO this gives both people all the validation each wants/needs but without the negative consequences that come from enmeshment. However, I think the end result can look confusingly like enmeshment. Before interdependence can be achieved, I would think each person needs to learn to stand on his/her own feet and become truly independent and differentiated. That seems to be the purpose behind Schnarch’s “hugging till relaxed” exercise.
Only after the differentiated state is mastered can both people come back together without fear of abandonment because in time of crisis both people can differentiate knowing each will be ok standing alone. So the fear of differentiating is no longer a fear and the reactivity and attacks than come with differentiating can be avoided. People can transition back and forth between differentiation and interdependence without concern of retaliation or the need to seek other-validation (because of high empathy levels from the spouse which come as a gift). One critical point seems to be the need to become extremely open and vulnerable as a “price” to induce the spouse to offer a comforting “gift.” I the spouse is not aware that the other is in stress, how can s/he offer a gift?
In this way, is the desire that CeMar wants really the interdependent state he sees in some couples? CeMar, can you see how this comes full circle? To get the desire and feeling of “other-validation” that you seek from your wife, you both must first learn to differentiate and stand alone. That is what some many have been trying to tell you. But I think what has been missing is the false impression that such differentiation is the end of the road. I see it as only a midpoint. Interdependence is the final objective but it looks so much like enmeshment the two can be confused. Even though the path leads full circle, it is not a circle because the destination of interdependence is not enmeshment, it only passes by enmeshment.
I also think this may be what Mojo is struggling with in trying to balance fusion against self love.
