Thanks to everyone for the tremendous support. It means the world to me and I very much appreciate it. I intend to keep this short, but may ramble. I'm emotionally whipped.
D9 overheard me because she went outside on our deck and I was outside underneath. I absolutely did not want either of them to hear any part of this conversation. Funny how it's the little things that lead to this sort of accident. Our neighbor's AC was on, so I didn't hear my D walk out onto the deck or I would have immediately ended the conversation.
Yes, the pictures were of the OM. Yes, they were from the beginning of the summer.
If I had been thinking rationally, I wouldn't have mentioned this. No, that's not true. I would have waited until this evening to ask to speak to her face to face. Of course, that might have been too intimidating for her, so over the phone may have been for the best anyway.
OT, regarding this not being DBing. I had to know. I was feeling great today; good PMA, looking forward to finding something, doing some work, etc. Finding this was almost like being shot. The physical reaction of seeing his face for the first time and seeing her literally cheek to cheek with him and looking into the camera with the look in her eye that used to be reserved for me caused an intense physciall reaction. Hot flashes. Sweats. Shook for an hour. Part of Dbing is knowing your limit of what you can put up with, I had to know if she exceeded it. Basically, if it's not physical and just talking, I can continue. If more than that, I don't think that I can. My feelings are a big knot on this, so bear with me. Heaven help me, I'm still in love with my W and still think we could have a solid R. That's the worst part of this, I can feel the chance for something great – a great M based on honesty and respect, a great example to our girls – slipping away. She keeps asking why I can't let it just go. Let her just go. I said I am, we are in the process of separating and Divorcing after all. I simply reiterated a few things -- that we've never been honest with each other and that I only realized recently how poorly I had made her feel. That her feelings for OM had to have impacted how she acted toward me. That she has no reason to trust me to make changes, that some of my bad habits have been a lifetime in the making, but that I'm doing the best that I can to make myself a better person. I said the only thing I'm am trying to communicate to you and that I don't have the words for is that I really am beginning to understand me and we don't know for sure if we can't fall in love again because I haven't been me for a few years. That I get it now. That I understand that she needs a partner and that I need to be a better partner. I told her that I know you don't like me because I gave you no real reason to like me for a few years (that was a mini-revelation for me today -- again, I wasn't always awful, but I consistently did the small things that make for a well lubricated relationship badly.) It was almost like alien -- I was telling her how awful I was and that I understood, really understood, how she came to feel like she feels and that the majority of it was my fault. In the beginning I was angry and just asked her why she couldn't tell me she was going to be with him 3 months ago so that I could have saved myself a lot of pain (of course, I'll be a better person now, but still).
[This is just such an awful feeling. I realize that if I had understood all of this stuff about me that I get now, 6 or 7 months ago, I'd be on my way to successfully rebuilding my M.]
She said that the R with OM is only emotional right now, it hasn't become physical again. I want to believe her because it makes a difference. If she hasn't given herself back to him physically and emotionally, I can continue. If she has become physical with him again, I can't continue. Or maybe I can, who knows. But I feel that if it were physical again, I would be done. That would be the final slap in the face. I have told her that. That everything we have discussed with the mediator will remain the same. If you really want me to be done, tell me that you're with him again. If so, I will walk away and not look back. That I'll be as friendly as possible, but I won't have those feelings any longer. She continues to say it's not the case. They've just been talking. She's technically not lied to me about him in that I've asked her in the past if they are still seeing each other (dating, doing things) and that's not the case.
[all of the above was when I called her about an hour after finding the photos. I regret talking, but it took a while to get out of her that it wasn't a PA at the moment. Hell, we're actually only technically married, so not even sure that either of us sleeping with someone else, or becoming emotionally attached, would even classify as an A.]
OT, I did manage to convey your final statement as well before she came home. (That is, on the one call and before I read your advice). I've not said anything to her about us since that call other than that I feel that even if she decides to work on our R, that I need to leave the house for a while anyway. I was asking her about some apartments next to our D's school, and said it in the context of that short conversation.
Puddle,
Wasn't trying to give the W a kick in the pants, I lost control of my emotions. She's also never been able to say what would happen if we focused on trying to rebuild our R with each by being honest with each other. As I mentioned, I just realized all of this stuff about myself recently, and she hasn't seen it. Actually, she's seen some of it, but refuses to really acknowledge it. She knows I'm trying to be better – hence a few of the 'manipulative actions' comments I've gotten from her.
Sunny,
I lied, it wasn't much of a relief. I kind of suspected that she would see him again or was at least talking to him again. But seeing a photo, body blow.
And OT is exactly right. The situation is exactly the same except that I know that she's still involved on some level with OM. Can I deal with that? Because of what I know about me and how I interacted with her, yes I can. She doesn't want to acknowledge that we could be a good couple or see any value in being with me right now and I understand why.
The call today started off with anger and wanting to tell her to go effe herself, instead it ended up with me doing exactly what OT said, letting her know that I'm here if she wants to wipe her a$$ on me.
Fortunately, the conversation with the girls went as well as could be expected. My W, of course, who has “really thought this through” had no idea of how to start, so I did. We sat them between us on the couch.
Me: Mama and Daddy have something to tell you. We aren't getting along very well and Daddy is going to move into his own place in a few weeks. Mama and Daddy still care for each other but we don't feel like we used to be with each other and we need to take a break. We want you both to know this is not your fault and it between Mama and Daddy. That we both love you very much and will take care of you as well as we are now, we'll just not live together.
D9: (tears streaming down her face) – Are you getting divorced?
Me: Most likely (or maybe I said maybe), but you never know for sure. I am so glad that I met your Mama so that I could have two wonderful little girls. I just want you to know that mama and Daddy will always love you.
That was the gist of it. The rest was reassurance and some tears. D5 looked a little lost, like she thought it was a joke or something. My heart's breaking just thinking about this. I regret 3 things today: 1.Turning the call from being about her lies to telling her that I still think we can make it work 2.Mouthing “Happy” and, a few minutes later, “We don't have to do this” over our girls' heads while we were hugging them on the couch. 3.Not calming down before calling her and soliciting the board for advice
I had planned on taking my time to get out of here. Don't think I'll do that any longer. Will try to get out in 2 or 3 weeks. Really, the plan/points that I had the day of mediation is still in effect. She may come back, she may not. I've got to start living my life because right now, I'm not in a marriage.
Thanks, Matt. Might need some coffee so I don't turn to something stronger. Of course, I'm odd that way. I generally drink when relaxed, not when emotionally stressed. I like to be relaxed when I have an adult beverage, not use one to become relaxed.
Thanks again everyone. Any further advice on how to proceed appreciated. OT, trust me this time, I'm done on the R talks. Was going along, happy as a clam, to not have another one until she decided to make it work and approached me when I was blindsided by this.
I did say one other thing about the OM early in our call. She said it's not about him and I said you are exactly right. She had said she plans on eventually introducing him to the girls. I told her that part of me wants you to be with him and come to know the emotional pain and hurt you've caused me when you clam up with him and his bad habits start coming out. The other part of me wants you to never feel that pain. My main concern is that if you introduce him to the girls they are going to be confused and when the R doesn't work out, they're going to be hurt again and I don't want them to go through this twice in a few years. I don't understand how you think a R begun in lies and deceit is going to be a healthy one or one that lasts.
BD
My latest
Me: 36 W: 35 2 D: 9 and 5 T: 16 years M: 12 10/4/06: Bomb 10/5/06: Ended A 4/22/07: ILYBNILWY
THANK YOU for the grasshopper tip. I've just read his first thread and I've got a red spot on my forehead from smacking it with the palm of my hand. I must be his long lost twin.
ok, i'm not one to listen to as my situation is not getting better, but here goes, and i'll try and do it from my sitch as to not be so personal.
well the w is gone at this point. i'm not the guy and and i'm sure there is another. but the more i try and push things forward, the more she runs away. we are totally cold at this point from my pushing.
you need to remain strong, stop talking, listien to om. he knows what is up. i want to say start acting as if your getting a d, and let it ride, i can't speak for your sitch though. she has connected with someone else, you don't need her, but you want her.
show her that you don't need her. that you can make it on your own. this is just my perspective from living what appears to be what i have gone through.
Thanks, man. I'm kindof thinking along the same lines. I can honestly say that I know why she felt like she had to connect with someone else. It's just I've finally figured out my end and I KNOW that I've got what she needs and she can't acknowledge it now. It's like I had the worse possible timing combine with looking like a clingy, weak, insecure nimrod.
I am acting as if I'm moving on. I've told her how I feel and that, even with what I know today, the door is still open (OT, that's not something I said AFTER that phone call, but as part of it. No more pursuing. Check!)
I believe that I'll be available to her to reconnect for a little while longer, but I'm moving on. Looking back, I haven't really had a wife in 4 months -- no love, no intimacy (emotional or physical) -- but a roommate. Plus, the W that I thought I had in late winter and early spring was a lie. An illusion concocted by my W because she wasn't emotionally honest enough with me to tell me how I was making her feel. I ain't perfect, but I really do deserve better than that. So, either she'll come back and be taht "better than that" or I'll eventually find someone to be "better than that." In some ways, it won't be hard. I've shied away from listing my W's faults because it's not productive, but, man, she's got 'em.
And, Atlas, you're damn right. I've told her I don't need her, but that I want her. Time to show her that I really don't.
Thanks man. Hope your health is holding up OK. Sounds like we're in the same place, but we're coming to the same conclusions.
BD
My latest
Me: 36 W: 35 2 D: 9 and 5 T: 16 years M: 12 10/4/06: Bomb 10/5/06: Ended A 4/22/07: ILYBNILWY
I feel for you in having to do that conversation with your kids. I will put that down as one of the most difficult things you will ever need to do. My W was the same , left it to me to break their hearts. The comment about it not being the OM , I got this , that it was over before OM . Thats BS , I know we were in trouble but the minute they bring another R into the mix and make the decision to pursue that rather than to try and work on thier own M is wear the mistake is made. Then they delude themselves into justifying what they have done. I am saying this not to poke a finger at the WAS but for you not to buy into that line of thought. Do the best you can for yourself right now , be the best person and father you can be given the circumstances. If you can wait out OM then there may be an opportunity down the track. Right now any pressure will do no good.
The comment about it not being the OM , I got this , that it was over before OM . Thats BS , I know we were in trouble but the minute they bring another R into the mix and make the decision to pursue that rather than to try and work on thier own M is wear the mistake is made. Then they delude themselves into justifying what they have done.
Thanks, Dave, that's how I feel as well. I've got faults, but I didn't do that. I was able to forgive her because I honestly can't say that if I had been in the position to have an A that I wouldn't have. I'd really like to say that I never, ever would have done so, but I can't. We really weren't happy, for quite a while. Though I did honestly think things were getting better late last spring (now I know it was just blowback from the A).
Regardless, thanks for the support. It's nice to know that I'm not crazy.
I'm very disappointed in my W. She's been avoiding telling the girls and I've been asking her to do some thinking and maybe even some reading about how to approach it. I was going to do some of that tonight because I was pretty sure she wouldn't. Who would've thunk I'd been right on that. I'm stopping before I go off on her.
Poke as many fingers at my WAS as you'd like
BD
Last edited by Heimlich; 08/20/0709:53 AM.
My latest
Me: 36 W: 35 2 D: 9 and 5 T: 16 years M: 12 10/4/06: Bomb 10/5/06: Ended A 4/22/07: ILYBNILWY
It sounds like you handled that conversation with the girl as well as you could. I don't look forward to that conversation but I know it will happen eventually.
The OM relationship will not last and you know this deep down inside. You have to decide if you can forgive her actions.
It is time to really detach from the sitch but remain positive and supportive. Act like you are okay with this sitch. when you are around her, act like you are moving on. I guess the key word here is act!
You will come to the realization that you will be alright and maybe even better without her. I don't think any of us want the R that we had before. The WAS has to realize what mistakes they have made and they have to want to change and most of all they have to fall back in love with us for any progress to be made.
As long as we keep telling them to work on the R or telling them how good it could be it just pushes them further away because they don't feel it now. They will come to realize what they have done and what pain they have caused.
Your W keeps bringing up the sex issue and I really don't think that is the main issue. I think she uses that to rid herself of guilt. She may have fallen out of love with you but the affair and the guilt weighs heavily on her mind. The more she can put on you helps to justify in her head what she has done.
BD....just try and be the best dad you can be right now...those girls need you now more then ever.
