M - 57 H - 65 1st A-bomb - Nov 27/02 2nd A-bomb - Dec 13/06 together 21 years *************************** Insanity is doing something over and over and expecting different results (Albert Einstein)
Oops I spelled "theory" wrong in the title - sorry
Heywyre
M - 57 H - 65 1st A-bomb - Nov 27/02 2nd A-bomb - Dec 13/06 together 21 years *************************** Insanity is doing something over and over and expecting different results (Albert Einstein)
Things are a little tense, to say the least, right now. We had a VERY heated conversation on the phone (which I detest - I try as much as possible to have them in person but with H working strange hours, sometimes it is difficult)
But this time, it was his doing. He proceeded to ask me how I was. My response (in holding up to my end of the bargain with ST that I would express my feelings and not just say "I'm fine") I said, "I've been better but I've been a lot worse" which prompted him to dig deeper. I tried to avoid getting into any intensive conversation and said we would talk when he got home but he insisted on pushing. I, unfortunately, complied.
I told him I know I have issues too, but that I am doing the best I can to work on them and think I am doing quite well (I didn't say "the ST told me so" but it's true)
Then he got into talking about this new guy the ST referred him to and said, "no psychologist, or YOU, is going to tell me what to do" - hmmm sounds like an adult version of a temper tantrum to me. That's when I said, "therein lies the problem, you can't fix what you don't acknowledge and if we are not openminded enough to go into this positively, there's no point, it's just a waste of time and money". With that he ended the conversation with some harsh words.
Now, I know some of you will think I buckled (but, once again, I refuse to supress my feelings) but I called him back (and he wouldn't answer, so I left a message) to the effect "I am sorry our R has come to this, I don't want to argue with you anymore". and that was it.
About 5 minutes later he called and apoligized for being so harsh and said it was difficult to talk about these things when he is so far away. He said we would talk about it later when he got home.
Therein lies the next problem. I had to go visit my brother in the hospital and then do some errands. By the time I got home, it was well past supper time, and there were oodles of things HE had to do that were, of course, more important (like balance the finances - that's always more important than your marriage, isn't it?)
We VERY briefly talked about it and I am sure he thinks it is over and done with but it isn't. I am still up in the air as to what is happening in my life and I don't like this uncertainty.
Heywyre
M - 57 H - 65 1st A-bomb - Nov 27/02 2nd A-bomb - Dec 13/06 together 21 years *************************** Insanity is doing something over and over and expecting different results (Albert Einstein)
I'm sorry that you're where you are. I can say I understand your feelings. There is a thin line between standing for your M and then deciding that you have done what you can do and if the other person isn't willing, are we supposed to continue to stay and be unhappy? I'm not saying either way what I think you should do, only you can decide that, and I know you aren't to the point yet of making that decision. Just wanted you to know I understand and am thinking about you.
Me: 38 H: 35 S4, S5, S10 Bomb 01/07 Wanted D - nothing would change his mind Numerous A's prior to D bomb; EA prior/during D bomb Piecing 04/07 Deployed for a year 05/07 Still Piecing 2010 M 11 yrs 05/10
No, I am not at that place yet to make the final decision but I am at the place where I definitely know I don't want it to continue like this anymore and I am tired of ME being the only one that seems to be interested in saving this marriage (or at least it feels that way - maybe I am just wollowing in self pity today)
We still haven't had the "talk" that he said we would but he definitely knows that I am beginning to withdraw and has been trying to suck up all day. I don't want suck up attention, I want it to be genuine.
I think the next time he says "I don't think I can give you what you need" I might just agree with him and see what type of response that gets
Heywyre
M - 57 H - 65 1st A-bomb - Nov 27/02 2nd A-bomb - Dec 13/06 together 21 years *************************** Insanity is doing something over and over and expecting different results (Albert Einstein)
I think you did quite well. I also think he did quite well, since he did call you back and apologize. That takes some humbling to do, especially after he had tried to draw a hard line against being told what to do. I think a hopeless case would not have backed off and apologized.
I know you feel you are doing better and have made progress. My wife tells me the same thing, but IMO, her idea of progress is light years away from mine. She may have traveled miles, which for some one else may have been sufficient, but for her is just a fraction of where I think she needs to go. If you are still engaging and reacting with your H, then you have a ways to go, even though you may have come a long, long way. You are in the thick of the "battle," when the most change will occur. To quite now would be foolhardy I think.
I think the next time he says "I don't think I can give you what you need" I might just agree with him and see what type of response that gets
I think this is a very good idea because I think his statement is just a power play, an attempt to intimidate you. It is false on two accounts that you should call him out on:
1) It is a threat and one that he is not likely to carry out. If he truly feels t hat way, why is he reacting to YOU? Why do your statements make him so angry? He reacts because he still cares (enough to call back and apologize) and he still needs validation from you. He is lying to both you and himself in trying to deny these facts (at least a I see it).
2) He is selling himself short by saying he can't give you what you need. That is not true and you know it, and it is an insult to you and him to denigrate himself like that. If you had made such a comment about him I bet he would blow up, right? He needs to respect himself as much as you respect him.
BTW, has your counselor or this new guy been able to do any FOO work with your H? His anger is very deep seated and I do not believe it comes from your relationship with him. It must be from his past, and I think that only by seeing his FOO in an accurate light will he come to understand why he is what he is, and why it is ok to drop those old defensive behaviors. IMO, without this understanding, all that you and the counselors are trying to do will feel like manipulation to him.
IMO, the key to doing this is for you to lead with exploring your FOO and lay it out for your H. You have a tough situation, not that much different from mine. The only way to get my wife to understand her FOO is to point it out after also pointing out my own. Pointing out problems with other couples, such as her sister, is another good way to explore issues. That takes the spotlight off your H and lets him put 2 and 2 together.
I think the next time he says "I don't think I can give you what you need" I might just agree with him and see what type of response that gets Some times that is what you have to do.
BB frequently answered my questions when we were at odds, with the question "do you want a D?" and she never got around to an answer to my question. Then I would try to smooth things over, calm things down, so once I said yes when she said the D word.
BB quit answering my questions with her, "Do you want a D?"
I think the "I can't give you what you want" is a bluff and an escape hatch for your H. It is a way for him to be non-committal.
I remember GEL telling her H "there might not be any more anniversary’s. I think that did a little something to get his attention.
BTW, has your counselor or this new guy been able to do any FOO work with your H? His anger is very deep seated and I do not believe it comes from your relationship with him.
It is DEFINITELY from his past - both counsellors have said that. He still hasn't made an appointment with the new guy (still holding out on that one because he is an in-your-face kinda guy and the last T said he won't let you get away with anything). I think this is EXACTLY what my H needs - headon , but I am also concerned (and so is the last T) that it will make him throw up his hands and say forget it.
He has suppressed his emotions for so long he not only doesn't know how to express them, he doesn't even believe he has them (thus the line "I can't give you what you need"). He is convinced he just doesn't have it in him to express what I am portraying to him. I, on the other hand, can see right through his facade. I used to think that maybe I was just "wanting" to see that other side of him but the T told me he has a wall around him too (and interestingly enough, he was visiting with his oldest daughter the other day and what did she tell him "I sense a wall around you, just like me" - she also has some minor depression problems) so perhaps he will reflect on that too.
Now, the "wall" - as much as he believes I can sense something he cannot relate to, he doesn't have a clue as to how to change that and that's where the "I am who I am" comes in - and the "I can't change my personality" The last time he said that, I told him "I am not asking you to change your personality, I don't want you to do that because that's the man I fell in love with, what I am asking is for you to look inside yourself and reflect on how you can change your behaviour"
Heywyre
M - 57 H - 65 1st A-bomb - Nov 27/02 2nd A-bomb - Dec 13/06 together 21 years *************************** Insanity is doing something over and over and expecting different results (Albert Einstein)
... but I am also concerned (and so is the last T) that it will make him throw up his hands and say forget it.
This is a real and legitimate danger and one of the reasons why I do not buy wholesale into Schnarch. Learning to differentiate and “hold onto yourself” is great goal, but for those of us who are more dysfunctional, moving to that state is a humongous undertaking. In fact, I believe it can be so great that a person like your H cannot even begin to understand what it means or how he cold possibly do it. So he just gives up.
That is why I have been pushing on this board the idea that Schnarch needs to be modified for certain people. The Adult Attachment Theory and the process used for post traumatic stress victims seems to me to fill the gap in Schnarch. Offering some validation, but in continually smaller doses allows a person to ease into differentiation at a measured pace. This seemed very obvious to me when Schnarch was on the Dateline TV show. One couple was able to make the transition, the other was not and ended up divorcing. I think that marriage could have been saved.
This is why I have been cautioning you to give a little to your H, offer him the carrot of your approval and your love as he undertakes the stick of reform. Victims like him need a LOT of the carrot. If you can take two steps forward for each on back (or maybe 4 forward for every 3 back), then you might be doing quite well. But remember, because of the ongoing enmeshment that still exists, you have much more power in this process that another wife would with a more functional H. That H might be able to make a jump to differentiation all by himself, without any input from the wife, and then come to decide he does not need the wife at all. IMO it can be a two edged sword.
Ever since we had our little blowout, I have been rather cold. Yes, some could say that's vindictive but I am tired of the games. On the other hand, H has been "sucking up" since then. Which just goes to prove that he CAN give me what I need IF he wants to
Heywyre
M - 57 H - 65 1st A-bomb - Nov 27/02 2nd A-bomb - Dec 13/06 together 21 years *************************** Insanity is doing something over and over and expecting different results (Albert Einstein)
