New and confused

[Nomopo]

Sorry I am just getting back to this post. Have had some stuff going on, as you know.

Now we both have a chance to grow and be happy together again, and that would be the right/satisfying thing to do.

"right and satisfying"---that's an interesting thought. I've been working on why I want to change someone's mind who seems so certain, other than for my needs.

Well, the other obvious one is your kids needs.

W doesn't seem to know that she has growing to do. I do love her. Deeply. I am willing to do so much for her and us, if only she would see that.

I hope she does. Have you ever thought about the possibility that W will decide she wants to save the M but isn't willing/able to do the work? If it's interesting for you, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on that.

Not sure I understand your question. W isn't willing to work on the M currently, and hasn't been since 1/22. As far as able, our old T suggested that she might not be able. That was surprising to me. Now I see how someone might not be able, but it is hard for me to really accept. Were you asking me something else?

I've also been asking myself, lazy lump that I often am, how much work I'm willing to do. Sometimes I think I just want to rest, and let whatever will happen, happen.

I think that is a little part of what is happening to me now, but I think the bigger part is W isn't as attractive me as a person because I see a lot of flaws and lot of issues and I don't see someone owningup to her issues and being willing to work on it so we can both have the R we deserve. Also, she has disappointed me greatly in how she is acting and has acted and how she has handled a lot of this, which makes me think she is not the person I thought I fell in love with and can never be the person I need (or maybe even that my kids need). But if she stepped up, I would still gladly try and work on it. At least for now. But I feel more and more content with what happens if she doesn't.

A very very very important sideproduct of this is the power seems to have shifted almost immediately in our R. I mean she could still file for D tomorrow and mean it, but there was such a power imbalance that it was very frustrating for me, enabled her to do nothing, and was generally unhealthy. As my C explained, whenever one person in a two-person R is the high desire person (for anything - sex, to work on the M, to save the M, to go to the zoo), the other, lower desire person has the power (whether they want it or not) because they have to agree.

Oh, he's quite the thinker. I once told him his gravestone should read: Not dead, just thinking about it.

P.S. Are my posts the longest? I wonder if they're tiring to read.

Are you kidding? Wait until you get my threads. Mine are the longest. I am the king of long posts. Ask anyone around here.



Later,
Nomo

[bar]

You certailnly are Nomopo - if you're The King of Long Posts then I want to be the Queen of Short Posts

barxxx

[bar]

Puddle -I wrote you a post a while ago and my cranky connection lost it so I'll try again.
Completely forgotten about H which is good, I think.
However Jolene has been preying on my mind somewhat, espaecially the line: please don't take him just because you can.
What do I know about Jolene?

She's older than me
She's taller than me (big feet are just so attractive)
She's not as smart as me (she did some truly dumb things a while ago)
She knew H was M
She has to prove she can sustain a R because she's failed over and over
She needs a man who is solvent (he will be when the house is sold and I am ensconced in my trailer)
She is prepared to wreck my M and my family
She is doing to me what some OW did to her
She is not a nice woman

Oh dear. I'm starting to feel sorry for them both. Is this normal?

bar xxx

[Strongerthanthis]

Hi Puddle

A very very very important sideproduct of this is the power seems to have shifted almost immediately in our R. I mean she could still file for D tomorrow and mean it, but there was such a power imbalance that it was very frustrating for me, enabled her to do nothing, and was generally unhealthy. As my C explained, whenever one person in a two-person R is the high desire person (for anything - sex, to work on the M, to save the M, to go to the zoo), the other, lower desire person has the power (whether they want it or not) because they have to agree.

This is amazingly powerful, when I read successful stories for the men this seems to be a recurring theme, and I could be way off but when my wife and I first met she made the running (not that I was a great catch!) but what lady wants to be with an easy option, does n't everyone want to be proud of what they have and if it's easy is not worth it.

When we have the bomb dropped prior to this we still believe we're a great catch, the bomb destroys us and wakes us up to reality we are not 'God' and we go into panic mode, crying, begging this is natural emotion but maybe our WAW's need to see us again as worth the effort not a messy heap!

take care
charlie

[sandi2]

Hi,

I moved over into "Piecing"....so I hope you get this. My H and me always had a problem with out "timing". If he was down...I was up...and visa-versa. So, that is important. His down mood doesn't have to mean anything....I have days like that. It could be our blood sugar level, or a lot of other physical things that cause it and we are not even aware of it. I know I can just get up from the bed in the mornings feeling good or bad for not particular reason.

I kind of laughed when you described yourself. I can almost get a visual picture of you in my mind. Do you have a higher energy level than your H? If so, it will be a challenge for you to "calm down" to his level and especially control the chattering. I can identify with everything you say, b/c it sounds like my H and me the first few years we were M.

Anyway, good luck toward this week-end. If you get the need to "chatter"...come talk to me. (lol)

[Puddle]

Hey everyone!

Well, the other obvious one is your kids' needs.

Yes, this is the biggest motivator for me. If it weren't for them, I'd be so much more willing to let him go without as much of a fight. It must be the big motivator for him, too, otherwise there'd be only financial reasons to stay in the same house. Sure, we're great friends, but great friends don't need to live together.

This brings me to a very strange point. During our last big R talk, when DH expected me to throw him out and I didn't, we seem to have agreed that he'll stay here. He's told me he wants out of the obligation to be my husband (the romantic part) and says he's not thinking of jumping into another R. We haven't at all talked about how this will look moving forward, which leaves me in this strange limbo.

Over the last couple of days it's clear that he's not totally happy and feels a bit lost, especially around me. That contentment he felt after our talk was short-lived. He last asked what sort of information I want from him about anyone he's seeing, and I said I needed time to think about that. I don't think I'm thinking clearly about this yet---I can feel myself getting into panic mode whenever I think about it---but what in the world is he picturing going forward? Everything will be the same except he'll date?

To be honest, I think he's having a hard time being around me, knowing that I don't agree with his decision, despite the fact that I've been pretty normal around him. When he clearly doesn't want to talk, I leave him alone. I think I'm feeling that he's going to tell me this isn't working for him, that he needs more space. He's certainly not acting like a friend. Sorry, I'm rambling, but it seems like the only thing concrete that's happened is that I now know I'm living with someone who doesn't want to be with me. I'm waiting for something to happen.

Nomopo, I meant have you thought about what you'd do if your wife says she's decided she wants to save your M, but it turns out that she's not willing to do the work necessary to bring *you* where you want to be. You've made tremendous progress on yourself and building the life you want. You know you alone are responsible for your happiness. So would you choose to be happy with a wife who wants to be with you but doesn't work on her own issues? Does that make sense?

W isn't as attractive me as a person because I see a lot of flaws and lot of issues and I don't see someone owning up to her issues and being willing to work on it so we can both have the R we deserve.

When I'm honest with myself, the fact that DH is able to come to the conclusion that our R isn't what he wants and *not even try* is hard to get past. He gave me this analogy: He could work hard to make his job the best ever and be happy with it, but why bother working to improve a lousy job when it's just easier to get a new one? Despite his protestations that I'm a wonderful this and a dear that, I haven't got past the fact that it's just not worth the effort to him. (In fairness to his point of view, he argues that it's not a question of effort, it just "is"---unchangeable.)

And I think he's still at the point where the kids are a footnote: Saying he doesn't want to break up our family is pretty much all he's said about it (that and he doesn't see them much anyway---jacka**). A lousy job doesn't bring two new lives. Wow, I guess I'm tapping into that anger. But I'm not thinking much of him right now, and certainly not of how little he thinks of me (no matter what he says).

The balance of power issue is huge. You've carried your R for a long time, Nomopo, and I'm not sure where I am with that. How is it possible that just a few weeks ago I told him I was looking forward to being done with my big project because we hadn't spent enough time together and I'd missed him, and now I'm already contemplating life without him? I don't want to wake up one day and realize I'd just stuffed all my feelings and never dealt with them. Maybe this is just anger. Or maybe when I really take a good hard look at the R and his willingness to chuck it all, I realize it wasn't what I wanted.

I made a list of what I want in an R last night and was shocked to see how little of it exists now (and has for a long time). That's obviously also my fault. But regardless, I was totally committed to him and knew that it wouldn't always be like that. His lack of commitment is shocking and disappointing to me, very unattractive. And I've lost a huge amount of respect for him. If he doesn't come around, without the respect that friendship he seems to be counting on will be very different indeed.

Oh dear. I'm starting to feel sorry for them both. Is this normal?

I have no idea. Contempt and disdain, I totally get. In more generous moments, though, sure, I can see feeling sorry for them.

bar, you've been dealing with an affair for a long time, so I'll pose the above question to you, too. What have you done with the disappointment, etc, in your H and his choices?

Hey, charlie.

maybe our WAW's need to see us again as worth the effort not a messy heap!

I wonder if there's something to that. When DH and I were first dating, it was a very (very) casual thing. Eventually I wanted more and he didn't. Then I met someone else, and I told DH I was considering going out with him. He said, "Do what you like," then came crying around begging me to stay with him. I was very suspicious of his change of heart, but as we hope happens with DBing, he staid the course and I believed he meant it. Now here we are 13 years later, and he's essentially questioning that decision.

Okay, now I've worked myself into quite a funk, and we're having dinner together in a few hours. I need to put on my happy face---I think I'm really going to need it tonight.

Thanks, everyone, for your thoughts! I surely do appreciate them.

[Puddle]

Hey, sandi2, I missed your post. Sounds like we have a lot in common! I'm not a particularly outgoing person, more of an introvert, anyway, except with those I'm close to. They get the brunt of my chatting.

His down mood doesn't have to mean anything....I have days like that.

I do, too, but in this situation it's hard not to attribute it to what's going on with him right now. He's been sleeping so much I asked him if he thinks he's depressed (he suffers from depression and takes antidepressants). He said no, it's just stress. I heard: R stress.

Do you have a higher energy level than your H?

My dead grandmother has a higher energy level than my DH. Okay, that's not quite true. He can be quite the lump, though he's become less lumpy in the last couple of years. But yes, in a way, I still probably wear him out. I'll have to think about that more. Thanks for the insight.

Take care!

[Puddle]

Oh help. I'm feeling more confused than ever, and I'm not sure I did the right thing.

Went to dinner with DH, just for fun, let's have fun! Today he'd sent me an email saying he thinks he should be on an allowance, wants to spend a big chunk of money. I said, sure, let's talk about it. As soon as we sat down he brought it up. I said, well, we've got the money and we've never put restrictions on each other before, so why the allowance? I want an IPod. Maybe dumb dumb dumb. He said sure, get yourself an IPod, you don't need to ask, but that it felt strange to spend money "outside the family." I thought duh, he wants to spend it on his crush (whom I will now refer to as the OW. Damn.). I started to feel lightheaded and lost my appetite. It went like this, all quite calm, no snideness (honest):

Me: So when you're talking about spending money on other women, you think you should have a limit.
DH: I always have a hard time spending money on himself, like when I goes out with my friends.
Me: I spend money out with my friends; do you think I should have an allowance, too?
DH: No, that's fine. Maybe it's just me.
Me: I've never questioned you spending money before. Do what you think is right.

At this point it didn't really matter. My PMA was shot to hell, and all I wanted to do was go to the bathroom and cry (which I did later). I made some small talk, asked him about something at work this week, told him something funny about the kids. He was responsive, but didn't start any conversation himself. Oh, not true: He asked if I was on a diet, since I was eating like a bird. (Note to self: new trick is picking up tiny bits, but keep eating.)

When we left, he asked if there was some reason I wasn't bringing anything up. I said like I'd told him, I was happy to listen to anything he wanted to talk about.

So here's my problem. He's expecting me to talk about it, to ask him questions (like, "What the f*** was up with..." in his words), to tell him how I'm feeling. He's ready for the R talk, but I have no idea what to say. What to say?

Eventually I said, "From what you've told me, you see two options: staying in an unhappy R or leaving and having a chance at happiness." He disagreed, said the R isn't the problem. I rephrased. Then I said, "I see another possibility, though I know you don't. Making this R the one we both want and deserve. You don't agree with that, and I respect your choice."

He argued again it's not about the R, it's not about me. Said if he decided he absolutely wanted someone of another ethnicity, I couldn't do anything about it. He sees no possibility not even of change, but that change would matter at all. He said he didn't see the point of going into it just to rip my heart out.

I said, "Given what's at stake, I want be sure I've exhausted every possibility before I give up, so that I know I did everything remotely possible." He said, "Sure."

At some point he said he felt like he'd been living in black and white and suddenly found all this color. I said I wished he'd come to me with this clear new understanding about what he wants so that we could've tried to get there together. No response.

I mentioned again the doubts I'd had about us when I had a crush on someone a few months ago---a huge, scary thing for me. I told him (again) that I'd realized then that I wanted a different kind of relationship, but I also realized that it wasn't a choice between someone else and happiness or my family, but that I could build the R I wanted *and* keep my family together. He said, "So it's family over all?" I said, "No, that's not what I meant. Yes, family first for me, but it doesn't have to be either/or."

That was the end of it. We got home, he wasn't looking at me, so I got out. I said, "Thanks for dinner." He snorted, and I went for a walk. When I came back around half an hour later, he was sitting in the car crying. Another half an hour later, he drove off.

So he's expecting a big R talk, where I ask him questions, tell him how I feel, etc, basically to get a clear picture, I guess, so I can move on. He wants to talk about money, whether/what/when we tell the kids, whom else do we tell (parents, etc), etc etc. I'm not there yet. Honestly, I'd love to yell at him and tell him he's being a blind, immature, selfish bastard and that he can't profess to love his children and be willing to hurt them. And lots more. But I don't know what to say.

He says last week (it was really two weeks ago +) I cried, then I told him I'd listen and that I choose to be happy, and that I might never forgive him, then I said I wasn't ready to talk about how much honesty I wanted regarding someone else, and since then it's just la la la, working out, having fun. I understand his confusion. He's waiting for an explosion.

I've been spending so much energy on me and how I can get him to come around, and he just feels so very gone, utterly lost to me. In his own mind he's done, and he wants to talk logistics. And I just feel sick.

I know I'm rambling and incoherent. Does anyone have any advice? I'm a mess.

[Heimlich]

He argued again it's not about the R, it's not about me. Said if he decided he absolutely wanted someone of another ethnicity, I couldn't do anything about it.

OK, I'm posting while slightly buzzed, so take this for what it's worth and in the good spirit intended. One, regarding the quote above, WTF does that mean? Not to be vulgar, but does he feel the need to, er, "do", someone of a different skin color?

Look, please remember that this isn't about you. I've heard so many things from my W over the last 10 months that I know don't reflect the reality of our marriage (or, if they do, reflect her decision not to attempt to make things better), that you can't take personally anything that they say. I know that's hard to accept, especially when you need to understand your role in where your R is now. That said, the WAS believes things, and needs to believe those things, about our marriages that were awful and bad and made them feel miserable. Do we have some role in those feelings? Yes. Do they? YES!!

He said he didn't see the point of going into it just to rip my heart out.

Ah, I got a variant of this too My interpretation: I'm scared shitless of doing the hard work to make this R work. So I'm going to run away in the hopes that I'll be happy, the pain will go away, and, when I start dating someone else, these problems will magically disappear.

If you really love your H and want to make this work, you'll remain patient and let this verbiage roll off your back. Remember the Far Side cartoon? Doctors in a lab. On the bulletin board, water, milk, coke, etc off a duck's back, "Acide off a duck's back" with acid crossed out. All the stuff spewing from your H's lips is acid. Let it roll off.

Stay strong.

BD

[Puddle]

Hey Heimlich,

Thanks for writing.

Not to be vulgar, but does he feel the need to, er, "do", someone of a different skin color?

No, he meant that there's as little point in working on us as there would be in trying to change my ethnicity, i.e., I'm in love with someone else and you're not her. Nothing to be done. Hopeless. No one's fault.

He said he didn't see the point of going into it just to rip my heart out.

Ah, I got a variant of this too My interpretation: I'm scared shitless of doing the hard work to make this R work. So I'm going to run away in the hopes that I'll be happy, the pain will go away, and, when I start dating someone else, these problems will magically disappear.

He was referring not to working on the R, but to being honest with me about how he feels (about the OW). Though maybe working on the R would include being honest about how he feels, and since there's no point in working on it (see above), he doesn't see why he should be honest for the sake of being honest since it will hurt me. Does that make sense?

If you really love your H and want to make this work, you'll remain patient and let this verbiage roll off your back.

I do (though it's honestly hard to feel at the moment), and I'm willing to be patient. I'm trying to do my own thing, work on me, etc, but I don't know what to do about the talking he's waiting for. I think he feels frustrated that I just can't understand how useless it is and is looking forward to getting it all out in the open and talking about moving forward, his version of moving forward. In a moment of supreme ego and insensitivity a week ago he said to me, "I'll know you're okay when you start dating." Bastard. I don't know what to say to him. Last night I said that clearly there were many talks ahead of us. He's waiting for me to initiate them. "It's all about you," he says.

Remember the Far Side cartoon? Doctors in a lab. On the bulletin board, water, milk, coke, etc off a duck's back, "Acide off a duck's back" with acid crossed out. All the stuff spewing from your H's lips is acid. Let it roll off.

Ouch. And ha! Thanks, I needed a laugh.

Thanks, Heimlich, for your words, however addled. : ) I sure do appreciate the support.