Why would you feel guilty - why? Ah, maybe the fact that she has told me she now finds them gross and disgusting. Yep, I guess that pretty much kills the atmosphere.
And why would willingness cause resentment? It usually does, and for BOTH sides. Willingness maybe a place to start, but at some point, usually real passion for that activity must be developed, otherwise resentment creeps in on BOTH sides.
Women do this too. My wife often tells me what she wants for her birthday. Now compare this too my buying her a gift without her asking, by me observing what she wants, spending months listening to her, by getting to know her wants, and then I buy her a gift because I WANT to give her that gift. Obviously one is worth FAR more then the other.
Something I don't seem to understand is why we are asking the men to go without desire. The LD women gets desired 24/7. They get to feel it. But then we turn around and tell the men, willingness should be good enough for you. Don't we ALL want to feel desired?
Sometimes it seems that most get complacent in one way or another in a relationship. Sometimes they really DON`T know what they had until it's gone. Like men who stand down after marrying, put on weight and ignore their woman for sports, some women after marrying have caught the sperm donor they needed to get their chicks and don't feel the need to "put out" as they did before. Sure, they need a "companion" but not a "lover" anymore...unless it's a one night stand just because some hunky stranger got their blood to rise (and yes, married women are much easier to pull in a bar than singles from my observer experience).
The rock and hard place issue only occurs if you feel locked into a cycle. If that's the case you need to find a way to shake things up. If you truly are so incompatible then there are solutions, both legal and religious. Counseling is used to help break cycles of "incompatibility" by trying to find new angles of few, new insights on age old problems.
I think personally it's a matter of what your own, personal boundaries are. If you think sex and intimacy is so important then you'll do what's necessary to try to influence your spouse to not only hear, but work on the issue...ON THEIR OWN. If they don't do it on their own it doesn't count for much but you can help by guiding them to the right door for them to walk through.
Try creating situations similiar to when you WERE dating. Date your wife again. Go in with the same expectations you had then. Did you expect to get laid each and every time you went out on a date? Did you expect that fresh young thing to bend her knees and blow you in a back alley? Did she do any of that then? Perhaps she also needs to spin back the clock a little.
I'm going to try that. I don't know if it will work, but it's better than trying to convince someone to "want" me. If she want's me, great, if not all I've lost out on is a few dates. In the end, if it doesn't work out, then...well, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.
Are you "dating" your wife? Are you providing her with that romance that you had in the beginning? Not the fresh love kind, but the few months in kind? What are you doing?
Cemar - If I had been reading this BB 15 years ago I might have thought you were my H or maybe better phrased that I was your W. I had no Desire, non, nadda, zilch, zero, get away from me was sometimes how I thought. (It makes me cry to type this) Because of that, I have this desire (pun intended) to help you and yet I don't think anything I say actually will because some of it I can't explain or can't say any better than those that have tried before me. I thought I was a GREAT wife. I kept the house clean, laundry done, meals, kids were well behaved & I took them to all their activities, did homework, paid the bills, and I had IC when H initiated, but it wasn't with enthusiasm. It was another chore on my list. And yes I thought about sex, but my thoughts were... If I fall asleep, I will get out of it, if it's that time of the month, if I say I am to tired (which I probably was) I did try to stay away from the classic headache I thought that would make it less obvious. And sex was good (not great) once I had made up my mind to let it happen and that was probably once a month. (poor Hubby) So somewher in this history, BIL is dating a girl who is very outgoing, talkataive etc. One night at a party she says "I can't imagine anyone being married and not wanting sex. Why would you be with someone who doesn't want sex? on and on and on" I didn't respond to her as I never talked to anyone about sex, probably a FOO issue, here comes Cobra! Anyway her comments really guilted me, but I was still very unsure of my skills. My confidence was zilch, I had no clue really "What the fuss was about" It was something I did for him, thought that was loving. So, suddenly I am now aware there must be more to it, BUT HOW do I change? I really had to dig deep, I had to feel secure that my H wouldn't not laugh at my attempts or inadequicies or experiments while I tried to figure things out. I was so UNCOMFORTABLE but had to keep telling myself that there was something here I was missing. It took a LONG time! Actually, it is still a work in progress, probably always will be. Sometimes, I still feel embarrassed at my own sexuality, can't believe I did what I did, but the thoughts no longer last long or interfere because I know now that I have the freedom because I feel safe and secure with H. So are any of my ramblings useful?
Love at first sight is easy to understand; it's when two people have been looking at each other for a lifetime that it becomes a miracle. (Amy Bloom)
Why would you feel guilty - why? Ah, maybe the fact that she has told me she now finds them gross and disgusting. Yep, I guess that pretty much kills the atmosphere.
I don't think this is the "willingness" anyone is talking about (not me, anyhow). "Willingness" is what ComfortablyNumb said about the peas. Not his favorite, be just fine without them for the rest of his life, but she likes them and she's serving them, so he's happy to eat up. What *you* seem to be talking about is me eating liver. "This crap makes me gag and you know that; thank you *SO* much for serving it, now I have to eat it or you'll get your feelings hurt."
Having made that statement about finding them gross and disgusting (have you asked her recently, in a peaceful moment, if that is still her opinon?), if she blows you, she is not being willing, she is being a martyr. Not the same thing.
Although that may be *her* problem (why would she so demean herself as to do something she considered gross and disgusting?), it's understandable that you might feel guilty about it, knowing (you think) how she feels. On the other hand, why would you put pressure on her to "eat the liver"? (think we may have just hit a new low in euphemisms).
Originally Posted By: cemar2
And why would willingness cause resentment? It usually does, and for BOTH sides. Willingness maybe a place to start, but at some point, usually real passion for that activity must be developed, otherwise resentment creeps in on BOTH sides.
TRUE willingness does not cause resentment; martyrdom does.
"Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock." -- Frank Herbert
If she finds giving head disgusting why in the world would you want her to do that.
I once ate meat. I became a vegetarian for 20+ years. During my vege years if someone tried to serve me a steak and said "you used to eat it so eat it now!" I think I would be a bit put out.
I don't know why I keep taling about food except that I have skipped lunch and I must be hungry!
Look, I don't know why your wife, or mine for that matter, have changed. Perhaps they never really liked sex and just pretended to get us to marry them. Really, I don't think it even matters.
I am dealing with my situation by not initiating sex anymore. It means that I have little sex, but I feel better with the sex that I do have. I at least feel that I have a partner now . . . even though it only happens once-twice a month.
I am not happy about my sex life. I am not ready to divorce over it either. I guess I will just remain comfortably numb.
TRUE willingness does not cause resentment; martyrdom does.
Exactly. I have lived with a martyr these past 16 years. I have told him over and over again that I would rather he just said no than pretend to be willing and then get resentful about it. That is why I asked the question. If Cemar thinks willingness=resentment then he is as much a martyr as he claims his wife to be. This is not a healthy place to be.
Cemar I suggest you do nothing you are not WILLING to do. I suggest you allow your wife to do the same.
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
(Mojo) Sex without the need for validation is the best because you KNOW that you are desirable, f*ckable, sexy, wonderfully sexual etc. before the sex even begins and so does your partner.
Exactly. Therefore, you can be totally open and connected. You never need concern yourself with what you *should* do in order to receive the validation you want, or what you *shouldn't* do lest the validation you require be withheld. It's just sex in the purest most connected and enjoyable form I can imagine.
However, I do believe that it can be difficult to achieve a state of being highly sexually self-validating in a complete vacuum simply because you can't really have sex in a vacuum.
That it's difficult is of no concern. I think you have to do it. I suspect that realizing you have to do it makes it a bit easier. Accepting that one is sexually perfect despite their sexual imperfections is perhaps a start down the path. Realizing that one doesn't need to be any better sexually than they already are. If one would like to be better and wants to attempt to become better then all well and fine. It's not, however, required. A person is fully entitled to feel wonderfully about themselves as sexual beings just as they currently are.
This applies to everything in life; not just sex. It's the common thread that runs among Schnarch, Deida, Glover (No More Mr. Nice Guy) and Eldredge. Eldredge says you get your validation from God and the others say you self-validate but nobody says "look to others for validation."
Why would you ever look to others for validation? Only because you believe you're not good enough. Somewhere, somehow, some amount of shame has crept into your psyche and decided that you're not good enough unless and until somebody else says that you are. In the case of sex, it's then very easy to cling to a person who provides that validation in hopes they'll continue to validate you until the day you die, and if they ever stop...you're in trouble.
(Cemar) THe first example gives 0 validation, while the second gives tons of validation.
The second only gives you validation because you have a need to be validated. What if you didn't have that need? You'd still enjoy the second more because it's more connected and more fun but there would be no difference in validation. You probably wouldn't miss it as much if you didn't get it, and quite possibly you'd be more likely to get it if you didn't need it. Rarely are people, particularly women, attracted to those who they feel *need* them for validation. I suppose because they have the same issue you have...their partner doesn't desire *them*, their partner desires the validation he gets from them. Two sides of the same coin.
On a related but somewhat different note, Glover talks about the need to masturbate without the aid of porn and/or fantasy. That was very difficult for me and I still don't know that I can do it completely but the progress I've made toward that end has resulted in my feeling better and better about myself. Is that something you're willing to try, Cemar? Masturbation without porn or fantasy, just for the sake of making yourself feel good?
I hope some of that came across. If I have to resort to examples and analogies this thing will spin wildly out of control.
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
