I know you have a similar sitch to what Mojo went through, and her H was so mired in the pit of his FOO and his anger and issues toward his mother that it was more than he could climb out of. But your H is going to counseling. That says something. It does not surprise me that he is stonewalling. I went through the same phase in counseling. Actually both my wife and I did. I got tired of listening to my W saying I was not facing my issues, that she knew all about her stuff and had addressed her problems but I was in denial of everything. I knew it was BS.
So I switched tracks and started to learn and read as much as I could. That is when I joined this board. Initially, all that work I did was just a continuation of the power struggle. I was able to level the playing field and slowly throw back at her all the inconsistencies and deflections she was making toward me. I was pissed, but so was she. So we continued to have our blow-ups. The counseling sessions also changed. The focus began to shift to her and her deflections. The counselor began to see that my W was stalling. Like your H, my W began to feel we were ganging up on her. When I tried to push a little harder to break through, my W decided to stop going to counseling.
Maybe your counselor has made the same error. Just because he has 30 years experience does not say anything about his ability to handle such difficult cases. In hindsight I can see where our first counselor made some serious tactical mistakes. The first counselor alienated me. The second counselor alienated my W. I see earlier in this thread that Lil made some suggestions about your counselor and for you to really hear what your H is saying. I think you should go aback and read Lil’s post. I completely agree with her.
My W and I have not been to counseling in some time. A rest period is not a bad thing. It allows time for all the new information to settle in. It allows time for the defensiveness and anger to die down. I sense a LOT of resentment in you. I know it is justified, you have every reason in the world to be angry. But I have two questions for you:
1) Why have you stayed with your H over the years after all he has done? Be honest about this because a healthy person would have left him, or at least separated, after the first affair. What did you gain by staying, or at least, what did you feel you avoided by not leaving? What is your vulnerability?
2) How have you created a safe space for your H to express his fears and vulnerability? How have you shown your compassion and concern for him in a way that allows him to open up without shame? How have you allowed yourself to be a softer, more vulnerable partner than your H so that he must step up to rescue you, rather than fall back into his pity pot for you to rescue him?
We have made a giant leap in that we have come to an agreement that my H needs to express his emotions more and I need to perhaps curtail my neediness a little and then we can meet in the middle somewhere (although he is understanding to the fact that might not happen overnight as the majority of my neediness right now stems from him having the A's as I was not at all needy before)
This was a valuable insight. But I seriously doubt you were not needy before his affairs. At that time, there was no need for you to express your neediness, but it was there.
There was a lot of back and forth accusing, deflecting and avoiding, as usual but I think H has finally come to a special place when he said "maybe I just need to listen to you sometimes and not say anything and go away and think about it"
DUH!!! Ya think?? (thought it, didn't say it )
The reason I posted this comment of yours is that I feel an underlying tone of resentment plus a need to be “right.” It was good you didn’t say anything, but I am sure your H feels your attitude, and under the surface he might feel a confrontational, oppositional attitude (not blaming you). But it is a power struggle and only serves to distance you two.
I have been going WAAAAY outside my comfort zone for the last couple of months now, putting my feelings and emotions completely on the table, which the ST is quite pleased with.
Another example of you possibly feeling like you are getting the upper hand and tilting the power struggle in your favor. It is good you are pushing yourself, but the fact that it is WAAAY out side your comfort zone says something. It should not be that difficult for you to express yourself to your H. It may not seem like he has been able to step out of his comfort zone as much as you have, but who knows, to him, he may feel like he has stepped further out than you.
And, trust me, I have been "squirming" the last couple of weeks. I have dug deeper than I ever have in my own life and admitted a lot of things, in therapy and to my H, regarding my own personal life.
Good for you. Take the lead on the emotional front. Show your H your vulnerability in expressing your issues and learn that he will not attack you for doing so. It seems you do not feel safe in expressing yourself, just like your H, but maybe a little less severe. I think part of why your H has not expressed himself more is that he still does not feel it is safe to do so. Not saying this is your fault, but that is just how it feels to him.
I think some boundaries can be especially difficult for women to establish toward men (and the reverse is also true for other types of boundaries). You have the chore of setting up a hard boundary in not tolerate any more cheating behavior. That will feel like a challenge to him, like a confrontation, an ultimatum, the type of situation I bet he had to endure with all his youth. The only way he knew to survive was to just do what he wanted, detach from any consequences that might occur, and ignore the pain he inflicted, just as his pain was ignored. He is only repeating the cycle.
I also bet that he had to play out that scenario time and time again, whenever he wanted to do something, or whenever he didn’t want to do what his parents wanted him to do. Yet that family “unit” stayed in place long enough for him to see that the members would not leave and that each could repeat his/her practice of dumping on each other. In these types of situations (which is what I grew up in), the members almost come to think they have a “right” to do this. Each has taken his share of abuse, so each has the “right” to dish it out. That is the ONLY way to defend oneself and not get completely walked over. It truly is a survival of the fittest.
But this type of environment means each person must insulated him/herself from the pain s/he inflicts. After all, no one comes to your rescue when you have been hurt, right? So you either shut down, or become extra emotional and volatile. There’s not much middle ground. Either an aggressive, emotional volcano or passive aggressive hermit living in a cave. Does any of this sound familiar?
(4) easier to pull back from an alcoholic and make them responsible for their actions (i.e. cleaning up their own puke, dealing with the law etc.) but what will detaching do to make him responsible for his actions. Do I just withdraw and not do anything to try and save this M?
Are you asking me if I think you should go into your cave?
(5) I have stepped back, a long time ago. I refer to it as "taking back my power". It was pretty effective at the time but doesn't seem to be doing much at this point. There is only so much you can withdraw from. Do I stop being his wife? (i.e. cooking, cleaning etc.? after all, I have to live here too)
There is a world of difference between detaching your emotions and checking out from the relationship. Detachment ONLY means stopping your reactions to your H, not letting him push your hot buttons. It does not mean taking back your power, which is a power play or a passive aggressive form or retaliation. It think this is why it has not worked well for you. Think it over. In the past, have you “stepped back” in order to become more empathic and compassionate toward your H or have you done it to subtly retaliate? Your H will know the difference.
